To ask what gender identity actually is?

[paralysedbyinertia]

This is a genuine question. I absolutely don't want to start a bunfight, so I would very respectfully ask gender critical posters not to share their views on this thread - not because I'm not interested in what you have to say, because I have learnt a great deal from some of the amazing posters on the feminism board, but I really want to properly understand the opposite perspective.

I actually asked this question on another thread, but didn't really get an answer. I want to understand because my dd has trans and non-binary friends, they're nice kids and I want to "get" where they're coming from. I don't want anyone to suffer. However, I'm afraid I really don't get it at the moment.

I want to know what people mean by the term "gender identity". I understand that people perceive it to be different from biological sex, and I had previously believed it to refer to gender stereotypes instead. I didn't agree with this, because I think the stereotypes are totally unhelpful -we should be rejecting them, not reinforcing them. However, I have since been told that gender identity isn't about gender stereotypes after all, so I am left wondering exactly what it is. It doesn't really mean anything to me at present.

What I have understood so far is that some people believe that everyone just has an innate knowledge of whether they are a man, a woman or neither. That some people instinctively feel that the statement "you are a man" or "you are a woman" simply doesn't apply to them, even if that statement appears to match their biological sex. However, nobody has yet been able to explain to me what that feeling is actually based on.

The words "man" and "woman" are just random sounds/strings of letters, so you can only really have a strong identification with (or sense of alienation from) them if you associate those sounds and letters with some sort of meaning. For me, those words are strongly associated with biological sex, so that's how I understand them. Clearly, they mean something different to others, and I am seeking to understand what that meaning is.

So, if you "know" that you are either a man or a woman, or non-binary, but this is not based on biological sex or gender stereotypes, or if you know someone else to whom this applies, please can you explain for me what that "knowledge" is actually based on?

I get that it's about a "feeling" of being a woman or being a man, but that feeling must be based on some sort of concept of what a man or a woman actually is - we don't get strong feelings about random strings of letters. So, if your gender identity is not based in biological sex or gender stereotypes, what do you think is the essence of "being a woman" or "being a man" that you are either accepting or rejecting?

Please help me to understand.

Sorry, didn't mean to enable voting.

Tbh I think much of it is due to what is seen as masculine or feminine. Obviously we know certain clothing and behaviours are seen as masculine or feminine therefore if people do not like these things even if they are the corresponding sex they may feel like they don’t identify as a man or women even if their sex is male or female. While I wish we did not have stereotypes of what it is to be a man or a women it’s obvious we do so I feel these people may be reacting to this.

Disclaimer: this is what I just have garnered from social media and talking to people. I also do not want to get into a bunfight with others.

I do hope this thread turns into a constructive thread unlike any of the other posts on here to do with gender.

Thanks for replying, @cinammonbuns. I too hope that this can be a civilised, respectful, constructive discussion. I lean towards the gender critical POV at the moment, but I'm open-minded about the fact that I might be wrong and I do genuinely want to learn. So many of the threads get so heated and polarized that it makes such learning difficult.

I had previously understood the concept of gender identity to be based on cultural notions of what's masculine and what's feminine, i.e.the traditional gender stereotypes. I was uncomfortable with these stereotypes, and therefore uncomfortable with the concept of gender. However, I have since been told that gender identity isn't about the stereotypical notions of masculine and feminine after all. So I think I know what it's not, I just don't know what it is.

Or was I misinformed, and actually, for most people, it is about the stereotypes after all? I'd really like to hear views on this from people who have a sense of what gender identity means to them.

What gives it credibility is that it is a term used in psychology. It seems to come from Freud, Stoller and Money.

All of their theories on it seem to be highly dubious and unethical.

The people who believe in gender identity don’t seem to ever refer to these theories in explaining what they mean, but still rely on their existence to gain legitimacy for gender identity being a real thing.

Thank you @LibertyMole. Could someone explain exactly how gender identity is defined by these psychologists, or point me towards a reputable website where this is explained?

It's a sociatal belief, of the same vein as a religious one. It comes with its own ideologies, often conflicting within itself (non-binary vs trans ideologies have quite opposing views of a gender lifestyle for example). Like religion, those who believe in it think it's reality, even though there is yet to be any tangible evidence of its existence beyond ones personal beliefs.

It is the result of a society which is at war with itself - one half wanting to keep the conservative, stereotypical male/female identities and roles (regardless of the sex one was born), vs those who want to see gender obliterated due to its unpleasant and regressive nature. What I find strange is that the latter are often thought of as the Conservative-minded, when in fact many are just trying to break the gender wheel, allowing men and women be be feminine and masculine within their own sex without appropriating sex-based rights that are needed for very important safeguarding reasons.

I see it as being based on perception. If I am born female I know what it's like to be a woman but also have a perception of what it's like to be a man, based on what I see and what I hear.

I see plenty of posts on Mumsnet saying things like "No man has ever worried about asking for a pay rise" when a woman says she is nervous about it. This can only be based on perception, that the person saying it feels they have an understanding of how male minds work. Even a male could not legitimately make that statement, because they don't know how every man thinks, but there is generally a perception amongst women that men find it easy to ask for something that women find hard.

This example shows how someone who has not experienced something can still feel they have an understanding of what it's like to be in that situation. Empathy, if you will. So logically men can hold preconceptions of what it is like to be a woman and vice-versa, which extends to gender identity.

Which is a long-winded way of saying, a man might feel like they are more like their preconceptions of what being a woman is than being a man is. They don't know what it's like to be a woman - they will never know what it was like to have been brought up as a girl. But that doesn't mean they don't believe they can, and do.

When it comes to someone feeling they are neither male nor female, I guess this comes from a similar perspective. They don't feel that they live up to their perception of what either men or women are.

I couldn't tell you what gender identity is, as it's impossible to discuss without resorting to stereotyped views of how males or females behave or dress. I am female because I have XX chromosomes. I therefore have female primary & secondary sexual characteristics, which massively affects my life and how I am treated by society. I have no gender identity. Some things I like are viewed as stereotypically feminine, some as stereotypically masculine, and some else neither. My opinion is that gender identity is like religion or a sense of national identity - you may have strong personal views or beliefs, just as you may have strong religious beliefs or national identity. This changes nothing about your basic biology and should not change how society treats you.
I have no religion, a weak sense of national identity, a weak sporting identity (by which I mean who I support & what sports I like), a strong sense of cultural identity and no gender identity. All of these things are inherently subjective, personally and culturally driven and determined, changeable and hard to measure.

I would like to know the answer to this OP.

Also, I would like to know what is a woman.

And regarding non binary, I would like to know what binary means. To me it means 2.

Very grateful if anyone can explain.

@WallaceinAnderland binary in this context means you relate to one of the two traditional gender categories.

Thanks for starting this OP. I hope people can play nice and only those with real insight into the non-binary POV reply as I'm so interested too and probably in the same place OP is. I don't understand it but don't want to dismiss it just from my own experiences.

binary in this context means you relate to one of the two traditional gender categories

See, this is where I get confused because there are lots of traditional gender categories, not two.