Greed of ‘buy to let’

[LittleLottieChaos]

When did people start to think that they should profit from housing? It all feels incredibly Dickensian. Pees me off when I see housing being listed as buy to let investments rather than ‘here’s a house for a nice young family to live in’. Especially with the market so horribly skewed right now.

It is shocking that people seem to think they have a right to profiteer from those less fortunate by whacking on high rents, that more than cover their mortgages. Legit: you need one house, one house only. Or maybe I’m missing something... or these are genuinely just bad people.

Interested to hear how people justify it? Do you just think, fuck ‘em I want to be rich? Do you not think about the morality?

(I rent but am saving to buy an appropriate house to live in... not to profiteer from)

@daisypetula

If there weren't landlords then how would people who didn't want to buy find a home . Students, people on short term contracts etc?

This has already been answered several times upthread.

The problem today is the drastic imbalance.

Yes we need some private landlords - and this role would be amply filled by people who inherit or move in with a partner/move to a new family home.

What we don't need is investors pushing up housing prices, out bidding first time buyers.

We now have the housing crisis: A situation where first time buyers pay high rents to the landlord investors who priced them out of the stability of having their own home.

Further down the line, those who would never have been able to buy - low waged or too ill or disabled to work - no longer have access to the private rented homes they would have in the past. They've been replaced by the priced out first time buyers.

So those at the bottom - including many vulnerable - are left with no home at all, or at best being at the mercy of the on the wrong side of the law slum landlords.

We need fewer rather than no private landlords and much better regulation - including harsher penalties for landlords who fail to meet basic safety requirements, and an end to any discrimination (benefits, children, well behaved pets, etc). We also need to raise housing benefit amounts.

We need an end to end no fault evictions so that families and individuals are able to put down roots and make a life as part of a local community.

And, we urgently need to end right to buy and build more social housing.

I don't think having an agreement eg that they can stay 5 years or 1 year is morally wrong. Often landlords might need to sell heir first flat when they buy their first house with their new husband . We have always wanted tenants to sign up to longer tenancies but they never want to do so.

I would certainly like to see housing benefit abolish so that the market could prevail.

Often a property is listed as an investment opportunity because there are sitting tenants

TealightsandddYes we need some private landlords - and this role would be amply filled by people who inherit or move in with a partner/move to a new family home

How great! Those lucky enough to inherit wealth or marry into it can have more than one house and live off the rental income. But stuff anyone who wants to use their own earned income to buy a property as an investment/pension.

Typical champagne socialist.

It's the champagne socialists who are 'investing' in other people's homes Circles. The King of champagne socialism, Tony Blair (and his family) lead the way. It was his government that encouraged it, and hasn't his family done nicely out of it. Meanwhile ever growing numbers of people are stuck in unstable expensive private renting or forever facing homelessness. Nevermind though. It's very very mean to change things. Leave the poor little housing crisis alone.

Typical champagne socialist.
No, that would be handwringing about the poor or vulnerable - "someone else should spend some money on it but not mine , whilst letting out an 'investment' but only to the right type, i.e. not the poor or vulnerable. On the other hand, someone like Xenia on the other hand isn't a champagne socialist or hypocrite. She's at least very honest about her intentions and views.

We didn't have good pensions and we thought we'd do better financially with a buy to let than a pension. We have taken housing benefit in the past (which many don't) and we have reduced the rent for our current tenants as they have been hit financially due to COVID. I think we're actually doing a social good by being very good landlords: providing stable, good value and well maintained rental accommodation in an expensive area. The people who rent from us wouldn't be able to buy. Not all buy to let landlords are the same.

Thanks, although I only own my mortgaged house and my sons own one house eat so we are hardly a hot bed of landlords (other than 2 of my sons don't yet live in their one house each so let it out in each case).

There will always be a market for rental properties for many reasons. When I met my now husband I moved in with him and have rented my property since. Why not? It’s an investment for our/our families future. The majority of properties in the area are private let, some bought for this purpose or like myself, bought to live in and then rented due to change in circumstances. I still have 10 years of a mortgage to pay, I make very little ‘profit’ from rental income.
A bigger problem was councils and local authorities selling off social housing. This has inevitably pushed up the need for a private rental market.

I dislike career landlords (the kind who own large numbers of properties) and I do personally dislike buy to let. But it's not that simple.

I have a friend who's disabled and living in a tiny bedsit, but she's also a landlord. She can't live in the flat she inherited because it's not disabled accessible and is 300 miles away. Inheriting it meant most of her benefits were stopped overnight, which meant she couldn't pay her rent (she was a lodger at the time), and she wound up basically homeless and sofa surfing. Selling would have taken months and involved upfront costs she had no way to pay, so renting it out was the only option to get some quick cash. The money she gets from renting it out doesn't even cover her own rent.

A couple of years ago I inherited a house that was basically derelict through belonging to a hoarder, and realistically my only option was to sell it to a property developer as a buy to let. Yeah in theory some young eager couple with building/plumbing/whatever experience could have moved in and camped in one room while they did all the work to turn it into their dream home, but what are the chances of finding someone like that to sell to?

Not sure how you can find yourself as an 'accidental' landlord either. If you inherit a house, sell it. Don't need to rent it. You are choosing to. That's not an accident.

Selling a house can be expensive though. Not everyone has access to the ready money needed to sell a house. I realise I'm very lucky to have inherited a house and once the sale goes through I'll have a very nice nest egg, but in the short term inheriting absolutely beggared me and took two years of crazy hard work and bills out my ears.

People seem to get the words 'Rented' and 'Let' mixed up on this thread. Tenants rent, owners let.

A couple of years ago I inherited a house that was basically derelict through belonging to a hoarder, and realistically my only option was to sell it to a property developer as a buy to let. Yeah in theory some young eager couple with building/plumbing/whatever experience could have moved in and camped in one room while they did all the work to turn it into their dream home, but what are the chances of finding someone like that to sell to

The developer could have sold it rather than letting it, but that is really beyond your responsibility. And I agree that people can be accidental landlords - it's the people who are happy to hoover up cheap houses to rent out and deprive other people of owning their own home and possibly condemn them to renting for life which annoy me.

I have more of an issue with second (or third) homeowners that those who rent out property though. Some people want to rent, so you need rental stock.

...it's the people who are happy to hoover up cheap houses to rent out and deprive other people of owning their own home

They buy cheap houses to let.

I do not see how that is depriving people of owning their own homes. In any area there will be some property to let and some to buy. Many people are glad to find somewhere decent to rent.

@Maggiesfarm ‘rent out’ is synonymous with ‘let’

It's called capitalism, OP. It certainly has its flaws but it's a darn sight better than communism IMO.

[quote AutomaticMoon]@Maggiesfarm ‘rent out’ is synonymous with ‘let’[/quote]
Why use two words when one will do? 'Rent out' is incorrect grammar.

News story today

Amazon had £44bn sales in Europe in 2020, but paid no corporation tax

Versus

Myself who paid tax on my PAYE job. Invested in a property & have paid tax on the income from that too

But then you do get people who complain about locals being priced out. Maybe I should have 'known my place' and stayed up north....I'm afraid I don't have time for those who think they have a divine right to live where they were born and grew up. It smacks of xenophobia to me. If someone who was born in [insert crappy town name] gets a good job and can afford to move to Devon/Cornwall/the Lakes/Putney (etc etc etc) good on them. They don't have to stay in [insert crappy town name] their whole life just so they don't price out a local. It's a horrible attitude.

I've only seen this attitude in relation to 2nd/holiday home owners, not newcomers who come to a new area to live and work, and who contribute to the community with their work, spending and presence.
There are places near me where half the houses are holiday homes/lets and empty for much of the time. The community dies a death: there are not enough permanent residents for local clubs and societies, shops, even primary schools... some of which have ended up closing and merging. It may be a gorgeous place to holiday, but local incomes aren't high, so potential permanent residents, be they local or otherwise, are priced out by the holiday home owners and the quality of life changes for those who do live there.

Betty agree to a point as I can appreciate that mostly empty holiday homes cause issues for local communities - I'm with you although don't know what the solution is.
you absolutely do see people complaining they've been prices out their home town though, even when their home town is not a holiday 'destination'. You still hear Londoners complaining they've been priced out of London. Some people definitely do think they have a right to live where they were born and don't like it when people from elsewhere can afford what they can't.

We need fewer rather than no private landlords and much better regulation - including harsher penalties for landlords who fail to meet basic safety requirements, and an end to any discrimination (benefits, children, well behaved pets, etc). We also need to raise housing benefit amounts
This is happening. With capital now being fully taxed on, many landlords have sold their property. This clearly is having no impact on house prices going up. It is however leaving some areas with no appropriate rental properties for those who do want to rent or need to.

You want harsher penalties than those already in place, to have no control over the tenants and no option to dismiss poorly behaved tenants, so in essence make it less and less worth being a landlord.

A gain, you seem to forget that landlords are needed, but you can’t expect them to become social landlords and then getting all the risks for very little rewards. It’s not going to happen.

I think with harsher penalties comes loopholes that end up making it worse for those that rent.

Who thought taking away tax relief on mortgage interest for btl was a great idea
But keep it in place for holiday lets
Who ended up paying for it?

Those that are good landlords remain good landlords and raise their rents to pay for the extra expense or get priced out of the btl market and either sell or turn their places into Airbnb’s. Those that aren’t good landlords no legislation is going to affect them because they will still try to squeeze as many people in as small a space as possible and not spend any money on maintenance. If successive governments say they want to target slum landlords then spend money on enforcing the legislation that is in place atm not bring in laws that only affect those who adhere to the letter of the law..

Equally I think a register of the worse offenders of both landlords and renters should be put in place so people can check who they are renting off and who they are renting to.
Not all the people who rent are perfect tenants and at least you would be forewarned that if anything goes wrong in your rental property that you have a reasonable expectation that it is or isn’t going to be put right depending on the review

@Bythemillpond

Equally I think a register of the worse offenders of both landlords and renters should be put in place so people can check who they are renting off and who they are renting to. Not all the people who rent are perfect tenants and at least you would be forewarned that if anything goes wrong in your rental property that you have a reasonable expectation that it is or isn’t going to be put right depending on the review

Its a great idea, but libel laws in England are such that very few people would risk it. Obviously truth is a complete defence to defamation action, but its so expensive even to get a lawyer to defend it, who would risk being out of pocket just to do so?

ByTheMillPond Who thought taking away tax relief on mortgage interest for btl was a great idea

George Osborne...

And it is that decision that makes rented properties in the UK some of the most expensively taxed in the world. As I say, I calculated that it would be cheaper to buy and rent out a rental property in Norway than in the UK of the size and rental income of the one I have.

ByTheMillPond Who thought taking away tax relief on mortgage interest for btl was a great idea

George Osborne

But a lot of renters at the time thought it was a brilliant idea.
I remember the news article and people rubbing their hands together with glee for getting one over on their landlord. That their landlord would be stung with higher charges.
I sat there looking at these people and thinking how little thought they had given to the reality that was coming down the line.

I wonder how many renters groaned when they heard that tax relief on btl mortgage interest was going to be taken away from landlords and fully understood what that would mean.

Worst LL & tenant - there are processes & procedures already in place

Secondly, if people don't wish to live somewhere, they are free to move !