Greed of ‘buy to let’

[LittleLottieChaos]

When did people start to think that they should profit from housing? It all feels incredibly Dickensian. Pees me off when I see housing being listed as buy to let investments rather than ‘here’s a house for a nice young family to live in’. Especially with the market so horribly skewed right now.

It is shocking that people seem to think they have a right to profiteer from those less fortunate by whacking on high rents, that more than cover their mortgages. Legit: you need one house, one house only. Or maybe I’m missing something... or these are genuinely just bad people.

Interested to hear how people justify it? Do you just think, fuck ‘em I want to be rich? Do you not think about the morality?

(I rent but am saving to buy an appropriate house to live in... not to profiteer from)

Oh, and by the way, just use the quote function on mumsnet to quote people - prevents this sort of nonsense because you can't fabricate quotes that way.

I rented all through my twenties and late teens. I wasn’t in a position to buy financially but I wouldn’t have bought anyway as renting gave me flexibility and allowed me to move about both here and abroad. I’m now a landlord of a property as it’s my pension pot (I’m self employed so I don’t get an employee pension). Not all landlords are greedy and money grabbing. I’ve not increased my tenants rent for five years and it’s a well looked after house.

Oooh, very close vote here.

I say blame the system rather than the people on the whole.

Obviously, do blame landlords who overcharge, overcrowd, take advantage and don't bother to look after rented accommodation, especially those who endanger lives.

Otherwise, when property is such a good investment, I can't massively blame people for putting their money into it if, say, they inherit enough to buy an extra place when they already have one, or somewhere to rent out when they don't want to be tied to an owned property to live in.

I think most landlords do want to do their best, many are clueless because you literally get no training nor any requirement to sign up to minimum standards of knowledge; some are well intentioned but farm out management to shitty agents who never pass on messages from tenants and make them look bad.

It should have never been allowed to get to the state whereby so many people rely on private landlords for housing. Most LLs who just own one or two properties can never be great LLs because at some point they will need to realise their investment. It's worth pointing out that most of these are not selling up to buy a Ferrari or fund a big holiday or some frivolous reason but to upsize their families home, or because they're retiring or divorcing, or giving the proceeds to their kids. This is not much comfort for tenants, but I do get a bit annoyed at the assumption sometimes that a LL is just selling up in order to throw their cash around.

Yes, I have been a LL, although I bought my house to live in and did for 4 years, but had to move out to live (then) HTB as his job was elsewhere.

In summary - the system is awful, but not all landlords are awful.

Why do you find that so difficult to imagine? Some people do prioritise ethics over money. Not BTL landlords, obviously

I don’t find that at all difficult to imagine @ChairmansReserve - where did I say that? But I do find it hard to understand why you seem to blame small time landlords for the evils of the property market. It’s a bit like blaming corner shops for the problems with the food industry.

I do prioritise ethics - my house is in good condition, my rent is lower than similar properties, but it’s pie in the sky to think that landlords won’t operate in the real world where people take money for goods and services in every other sector.

I know from what tenants and others tell me that there is a problem with rogue landlords, and I would like to see tighter regulation, but I’m not a rogue landlord, and, in the real world, my tenants would be worse off if I sold my house and put my money into an ethical fund.

That's a good post Echobelly
I completely agree. Not all landlords are bad people, and definitely the blame for the out of balance situation and the growing housing crisis lies squarely with successive governments.

@EvilPea

It would be fine using it as a business if it didn’t affect people so much. Houses are so much more than a business to the people that live in them.

It’s school catchments and with more schools getting rid of the sibling rule, you could be stuffed. With children in different schools. Or not being able to follow their primary friends to secondary as you had to move.

It’s buying a trampoline for the garden or a sofa for the living room, but getting the little one incase you have to move.

Getting your kids a pet, think long and hard. The next land lord might not let you have that rabbit.

Getting the paints out for the kids, better think again in case the kids get it on the floor and you can’t get it out.

Wanting to plant some vegetables in the garden, your on a rolling contract so might have to move in 2 months. There’s no point.

Wanting to paint a nursery for your new baby, sorry it’s rented. You can’t

That photo you’ve got would make a lovely canvas on your wall, oh no. Your tenancy says you can’t put pictures up.

Eyeing up that electric car? pointless as you’ll have to worry about charging points, asking the landlord and where you might move to.

It over takes every decision you make in life and is all consuming.

This is SO accurate, I only have two things hung up on the wall and that's because those hooks were already up. You can't put shelving up. I don't understand why rentals don't have a picture rail which would eliminate the need to make loads of holes in the wall.

I'm going to be evicted from the place I've lived in for over 5 years because my landlord (who doesn't live in this country) has decided to cash in on the booming housing market in my area. I'm struggling to find a rental, partly because I went self employed last year. I've been scared I could end up homeless so I'm going to relocate to where I grew up in case I have to move back in with my parents, which isnt great when you are nearly 40. The whole system is a mess.

I voted YANBU but then I’m a bit of leftie who thinks that, with the exception of short term/temporary lets e.g. for students, all rental properties should be owned by the local authority. Although a homeowner now, I’ve been through hell renting from unscrupulous landlords who don’t understand that while an investment to them, their property is a home to their tenants.

@CandlesBlanketsandTea
I’m so sorry . It’s shit. Don’t forget you don’t have to do viewings etc.

Thank you @EvilPea it's really stressful and I'm gutted I'm leaving this flat because I get on really well with my neighbours and love the area.

@CandlesBlanketsandTea

Thank you *@EvilPea* it's really stressful and I'm gutted I'm leaving this flat because I get on really well with my neighbours and love the area.

It is stressful and heartbreaking when it’s not on your terms. I hope this move is an easy one and the last one at least for a good long while

What a load of bollocks

I have a house I rent ( part of inheritance), run well, by agent, everything is sorted.
Due to unexpected circumstances, it will be part income ( as opposed to job).
I ‘m determined things are done right by tentants

Landlords are getting more professional even with only one house. Legislation keeps changing, every change is in the tenants favour. In the 15 years I have been a LL I only make 7%, not a fortune considering risk and instant cost of say a boiler.
I offer 2 or 3 bed family type homes on estates. Always in demand, usually they stay about 3years. Currently one couple with children are in for two years with his job before he will move on.
If I sell up huge %age of tax to pay on 'profit'.
Older LLs selling up gradually, not being replaced. But there is an increase in commercial firms buying direct from developers.

@CirclesWithinCircles

jasjas @CirclesWithinCircles**

Its what was said...

We buy auction properties that don't allow a mortgage, so yes, a young couple could bid just the same, as long as they have the cash

Yes "out of touch"

Those are not even my words now! First you accused me of saying something by neglecting the second part of my paragraph discussing the difficulty for young people of obtaining mortgages for properties needing renovation, and now you've completely made up a sentence.

Why are you doing this? Do you think being dishonest is ok?

And who are "we"? I've only ever bought properties alone, and never at auction. Really annoyed that you are not only misquoting me but now blatantly making up whole sentences!

I thought that was the point I was making. It's hardly taking houses from young people as they wouldn't be going for this type anyway. Cash buyers only with money to spend on renovations. Was my response to you believing this to be out of touch. We see some young people at auction, especially the small terraces.

I have been a LL I only make 7%
most of the value is in the asset which you keep and which will have appreciated, really the tenants are only there to service the debt on the asset. Or if there is no debt to be serviced then the rent is a nice bonus while you sit and watch the value of your asset rise

I reckon mumsnet is very landlord heavy...

i only have two things hung up on the wall and that's because those hooks were already up. You can't put shelving up. I don't understand why rentals don't have a picture rail which would eliminate the need to make loads of holes in the wall.

Two things on this

1. Have you asked your landlord if you’re able to add pictures? I’m a landlord and couldn’t care less about people putting up pictures etc, as long as it was done properly and they didn’t drill through a gas pipe or something
2. You could usually just do this without asking the landlord. I’ve done it when I rented and then just refilled the holes after. The check out report is unlikely to ever pick up on filled holes tbh.

Is property still a good investment though? Given how time consuming etc it is? Investing in London, for example, is no longer a good return especially on a mortgage.
Putting any spare cash in equities/fixed income if you learn a bit about it and diversify across funds is a) more liquid and b) over a 20 year period would in my opinion, likely yield more returns.

@ShirleyPhallus

i only have two things hung up on the wall and that's because those hooks were already up. You can't put shelving up. I don't understand why rentals don't have a picture rail which would eliminate the need to make loads of holes in the wall.

Two things on this

1. Have you asked your landlord if you’re able to add pictures? I’m a landlord and couldn’t care less about people putting up pictures etc, as long as it was done properly and they didn’t drill through a gas pipe or something
2. You could usually just do this without asking the landlord. I’ve done it when I rented and then just refilled the holes after. The check out report is unlikely to ever pick up on filled holes tbh.

My landlord is extremely hard to get hold of, it's managed by a letting agent and they can rarely get hold of her. I also didn't want the additional stress when I'm moving of faffing about filling holes. I've also had extremely regular flat inspections throughout my tenancy and find them very stressful so didn't want to put any pictures up then as they sometimes take photos so there would be evidence I've made holes.

Renting is stressful, I'm extremely aware this isn't my house and I could easily loose my deposit or risk a bad reference.

If you want to sell a house that already has tenants in how can you sell the house to a family with sitting tenants? That is why you will often see a property advertised as an investment property.

Someone said make btl mortgages hard to obtain. You need to put down at least 35 percent deposit and pay stamp duty of 3k. If you want to buy a property that already is a btl with a tenant you have to allow the tenant to stay on the same rent until end of their contract.

A bit of history.
The BTL fandango was kicked off by the 1988 Housing Act - which is key.
BEFORE the 1988 Act, if you (were lucky enough) to rent a house, you essentially had a tenancy for life, which you could even pass on to your kids.
RESULT....no-one wanted to rent houses, and (in the private sector) there were virtually no houses to rent. Rental agencies on every High St, just did not exist.
The 1988 Act - with its introduction of 6 month tenancies - made it financially viable to be a landlord and kicked off the BTL boom.
I've not particularly a fan of BTL landlords, but it's important to remember before they existed, it was virtually impossible to rent a house in the private sector, because no-one (with any sense) wanted to be a landlord.

@Sunnyfreezesushi

Is property still a good investment though? Given how time consuming etc it is? Investing in London, for example, is no longer a good return especially on a mortgage. Putting any spare cash in equities/fixed income if you learn a bit about it and diversify across funds is a) more liquid and b) over a 20 year period would in my opinion, likely yield more returns.

I honestly don't know about BTL in London, though I live in Greater London. The flat which I let is in another county where property is really cheap by comparison. I think it was bought in 2008 or 2009 and has gone up in value by about £25,000 so that was definitely an investment. It wasn't originally bought to let but was owner occupied until the owner died.

Have you actually asked your agent if you can put up pictures (in writing). If they don't respond, then ask for your LL's details which they legally have to provide.

I see nothing wrong with BTL, I own three. I offer well maintained properties at a fair price. People would be homeless if they were unable to buy or get social housing.
People buy and sell all commodities such as fuel, food, medicine and clothes.