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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Greed of ‘buy to let’

961 replies

LittleLottieChaos · 28/04/2021 07:34

When did people start to think that they should profit from housing? It all feels incredibly Dickensian. Pees me off when I see housing being listed as buy to let investments rather than ‘here’s a house for a nice young family to live in’. Especially with the market so horribly skewed right now.

It is shocking that people seem to think they have a right to profiteer from those less fortunate by whacking on high rents, that more than cover their mortgages. Legit: you need one house, one house only. Or maybe I’m missing something... or these are genuinely just bad people.

Interested to hear how people justify it? Do you just think, fuck ‘em I want to be rich? Do you not think about the morality?

(I rent but am saving to buy an appropriate house to live in... not to profiteer from)

OP posts:
Tallybeebloom · 28/04/2021 12:25

@Sunnyfreezesushi

@Tallybeebloom- that is sad re the Italian town you mention. However, again these situations can be prevented by effective local or central government laws/permits. For example, in certain Communes in Switzerland only eg 15/20 per cent of properties can be sold to foreign investors or used as holiday lets. You need a permit before you can buy if you are a foreigner.

I agree, something like this put in place would have helped. I could be wrong because I don't own property in Italy but I'm sure the government did implement a high tax for holiday lets being let out. The issue is this was done too late and ended up with many of the UK citizens who had bought property as holiday homes to rent out, wanting to sell them however they wanted at least what they'd paid for the property, which locals couldn't afford to pay (and many had left the town anyway) so now there's all these empty homes owned by foreigners, sitting empty, because they can't sell them at the price they paid.
Hopefully it wouldn't lead to the same thing happening here, but I do think that having a cap on how many homes in a community can be holiday lets would be a potential solution or at the very least give locals an opportunity to buy properties in their own community and ensure that these communities can continue to function.

JediGnot · 28/04/2021 12:26

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

I understand theres a need for some property to be made available for rental, but would prefer to see it owned either by non profit housing trusts, or alternatively property investment funds with incentives that make it optimal for people who don't already own property to benefit from them. Like a state sponsored scheme to waive fees for investment using help to buy isas, tax reliefs for individuals investing in property trusts but not available to high earners etc.
Can't argue with that. But, to be clear, the issue here is not private landlords it's that government has failed to enact laws and policies to reduce the numbers of private landlords by giving people better options in terms of who to rent from.
rossclare · 28/04/2021 12:27

I've got around 30 buy to lets - started buying at 25 and kept going. We rent at the market rent and keep our flats in tip top condition, but don't take any shit either.

It gives me a good standard of living and i can see a lot of my children.

We saved for all the deposits, did all the do up works ourselves and slogged and made sacrifices for years on very average salaries. At that point, anyone could do what we did.

We don't have pensions, our investment is all in properties.

You do know that pension companies invest in resi properties, don't you (just before you get too ethical and moralistic)?

So from a working class background, we can now afford a top gym, private health and education, multiple holidays etc - and anyone over the age of 40 could have done the same - we literally had no other help.

I don't feel remotely guilty or have any need to justify our investments. I'm bloody proud of what we have achieved.

figuresomethingout · 28/04/2021 12:28

I agree.

LittleLottieChaos · 28/04/2021 12:30

@DuelDu0 I have a lot of money saved and am raring to buy, saved between myself and my partner (both in well paid jobs, and with a young child).

The market where I have moved (yes we already moved - for cheaper and better accommodation) however the market is dead currently. There is so little listing and decent houses are gone in a day. This isn’t about me. This was a question of the bigger picture.

In fact I want do what to retrain, and will be paid less... aren’t I am anomaly.

OP posts:
Woeismethischristmas · 28/04/2021 12:37

I do think some rentals are necessary. I rented throughout my late teens and twenties and it was fine. I paid rent and in exchange got a nice place to live. That said I was young, free and single moving wasn’t a major hassle when a landlord wanted to sell. Giving notice so I could travel round foreign shores.

I think the difficulty is for families and that really needs to be addressed through increased social housing/ affordable shared ownership places which aren’t overpriced.

vivainsomnia · 28/04/2021 12:38

Can't argue with that. But, to be clear, the issue here is not private landlords it's that government has failed to enact laws and policies to reduce the numbers of private landlords by giving people better options in terms of who to rent from
Again, this is forgetting that much taxes come from the private rental sector.

Of course the government love us. We pay tax on something that bring us little income and take away all the trouble and costs of housing people. We are gold to the government. The only downfall is the number bailing out.

GreenLeafTurnip · 28/04/2021 12:38

But if no one let property, how would you be renting right now? Wouldn't it be better to be outraged at property developers rather than individuals who just want to invest their money somewhere other than a bank?

vivainsomnia · 28/04/2021 12:46

I think the difficulty is for families and that really needs to be addressed
By the government by also ourselves. Many families would be living in their own house if they’d waited a bit longer to increase their income before having children and/or stopped at 1 or 2 children. After 3, it becomes much harder to do so.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 28/04/2021 12:47

I really dislike the term ‘accidental landlord’. There’s nothing ‘accidental’ about it - it doesn’t just happen while you weren’t looking - it’s invariably a conscious decision because it makes financial sense at the time.

I say this as someone who could be called an ‘accidental’ LL, since our one modest rental property was not bought with rental solely in mind - it was to be a joint purchase with a dd who could not afford to buy anything on her own. So the original idea was for her to find a sharer for the 2nd bedroom, and the rent for that would come to us.

However for various reasons her plans and career location changed, we are now sole owners and the place has been rented for nearly 10 years. We have had very good, long-term tenants, we fix anything that needs doing promptly, and despite annual urging by the letting agent (now ditched) we’ve barely raised the rent in 10 years, so it’s now significantly less than they’d have to pay for anything nearly as nice locally.

But there was nothing ‘accidental’ about our decision to keep the property and rent it. It was a conscious decision based on the best place to invest at the time.

Might add that it was more or less a hellhole when we bought it. We spent a lot of money turning it into somewhere we’d be happy to live in ourselves. (The kitchen is nicer - and 20 years newer - than my own!)

Mancity100 · 28/04/2021 12:49

Yes let's all have a go at landlords, maybe landlords went without to get houses , should we stop businesses making a profit

Maybe some landlords are good with money, do people relieze you are taxed

Mulhollandmagoo · 28/04/2021 12:50

We own a flat that we rent out, it was my husbands before we met, and we would have sold at a loss if we'd have sold, so we rent it out - it covers the mortgage we have to pay, plus our insurances, plus a tiny bit extra incise anything goes wrong that we need to pay to have repaired. the view is that we will use this as a nestegg for our older age, might mean we can retire earlier. Probably not fair to bulk all landlords in together to be fair

emilyfrost · 28/04/2021 12:52

A capitalist society is a good thing.

BTL’s are needed for students and people who would prefer to let (it’s actually rather unusual to want to own your own home, in Europe their preference is renting).

It’s not selfish to BTL. Not everyone can afford to buy their own home and so they need landlords to rent their houses to them. It’s a necessity.

Miasicarisatia · 28/04/2021 12:53

There’s nothing ‘accidental’ about it - it doesn’t just happen while you weren’t looking - it’s invariably a conscious decision because it makes financial sense at the time
Amen to that 🙏

CirclesWithinCircles · 28/04/2021 12:56

@JediGnot

Personally (as a landlord) I'd advocate -

(1) 5 year long ASTs - one month notice from tenant at any time after 6 months, 3 months notice from the landlord at any point after 4 years and 9 months.

(2) Rent caps and controls.

(3) Higher rates of tax on rental income than people pay on earnt income (so long as property companies pay at the same rate as individuals do).

(4) Punitive taxes on second homes and vacant property. Tax people at 20% of it's value per annum if they choose to keep it empty.

(5) Abolish stamp duty to encourage people to move.

(6) Introduce property value taxes on residential property to pay for abolishing stamp duty. Instead of paying 5% (say) stamp duty when you buy pay 0.5% every year. Paid by the property OWNER, not the occupier. Give people more of an incentive to downsize instead of hoarding family properties that they no longer need.

You don't have much knowledge of the lettings market or the law relating to it, do you?
  1. Theres not much demand for 5 year long ASTs (where did this arbitrary figure come from?) in many city centres which make up the bulk of the market. You would do better to designate by planning permission, certain "family type dwellings" or "long term rural lets" (although these are covered by agricultural tenancy laws for some part) rather than this rather odd, scattergun, reactionary approach.
  1. Rent caps and controls - leads to higher rents, lower standards and a shortage of properties, because as we all know, the rich are always exempt in some way or other. Probably by a rolling monthly renewal on a holiday let business I would imagine, or the "under the table" rents which are common in Swtizerland, to think of one example.
  1. Is already in place and has led to rent inflation, because mortgage interest cannot be deducted from tax bills, as with any other business. All this does is exempt large corporate landlords and catch out the small private landlords, many of whom provide a better service than the former.
  1. Already in place. If you had bothered to read above regarding the detailed example of the decimated property market in Aberdeen, which is so over-regulated, city centre property prices have halved in the last 5 years and many properties are standing empty. New landlords are discouraged into low yield markets in Scotland because of the near double stamp duty in place for second homes. Unless you're based overseas, of course.
  1. No government will do it. And even if they did, the difficulty of getting a mortgage and putting in place the legal transfer of properties still wouldn't compensate for all the loss of employee mobility you would get by discouraging people to rent for short periods when moving for work.
  1. Fine, but in no other country is it as high as 0.5% for less than 3 properties. In Holland, tax on rental property is based on an estimated figure for all houses with the same cadastral rating, so a landlord achieving a higher rent for a luxury, well located property is not penalised for working harder. There are rent controls, but they are in areas dominated by social housing. Much social housing is owned by non-profit making housing associations, not the profit making companies we have here, which point you ignore.

I actually worked out that if I bought a property to rent out in Norway, I would pay less tax on it than here, even taking into account the wealth tax there.

The problem is that people who suggest these punitive taxes on rental properties:

(a) don't have the breadth of knowledge of law and other European rental markets (which in Holland and Germany are far more over heated than here) or even living abroad, nor of the law. In Germany, you quite often have to put in your own kitchen when renting a property, and will be expected to put up with old fashioned decor and heating. In Holland, you would lose around 1/3 of the rental housing stock immediately if you applied the rules on safety relating to fire exits and staircases that apply in Scotland.

(b) They're often motivated by a desire to yield power over those they perceive to be "richer" than them, which they think unfair, rather than by altruism. I worked for a local authority and had to have meetings with people who used to basically come out with the communist workers manifesto, circa 1972. One actually said "all property ownership is evil" in a council meeting.

In Scotland, we have a growing problem of ex or related council workers setting up companies to service the additional rules we have on letting property here - rules which we see nowhere else in the world.

(c) People who advocate these draconian changes are often incapable of taking in information or education about the property market - ties into (a) above. We need people with more qualifications and more experience making decisions that affect peoples' lives in this way.

(d) People like you also think that converting to a company magically turns a landlord into a saint, particularly if they then do a little bit of social housing letting, when in reality, these often make the worst landlords of all, employing unqualified school leavers on minimum wage to do the dirty work, and of course paying low corporation tax and deducting all business expenses from the tax they do pay.

PuzzledObserver · 28/04/2021 12:57

We’ve spent 19 years living in job-related accommodation after owning our own house in previous careers.

Rather than sell up, invest the money and hope it kept up with the housing market, we bought a brand new house (thinking: high standard, easy to let, low maintenance) and let it.

We used an agent with a fully managed service, so any repairs were done quickly. We had several nightmare tenants who stopped paying rent, semi-trashed the place and had to be evicted. There is an outstanding CCJ for over £6K in unpaid rent against one of them, plus the £4K it cost us to refurbish and our legal fees.

Our last tenant was in there 8 years, and we eventually sold the house to them - for not much more than we had paid for it, so a real terms loss. We had to put more to it to buy the place we will shortly be retiring to.

So yeah, we heartlessly made a packet. Not.

catwomanhatwoman · 28/04/2021 12:57

To those who say that there are those who can't afford to buy their own home so buy to let's are doing them a favour I think you need a strong reality check. If the market wasn't flooded by people with second homes then prices wouldn't be so huge and more people would be able to afford to buy one!

I say this as someone who could afford a second home but don't because I have a conscience.

Maggiesfarm · 28/04/2021 12:58

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER Wed 28-Apr-21 12:47:29
I really dislike the term ‘accidental landlord’. There’s nothing ‘accidental’ about it - it doesn’t just happen while you weren’t looking - it’s invariably a conscious decision because it makes financial sense at the time.
......
I think it refers to inherited property which is let. It takes time to sell and obviously the tenant has to be considered, nobody wants to turf somebody out. Even an empty property can take a lot of time to be sold and it makes sense to let it, if only on a six month basis, or it could end up costing you money.

Tuliptuliptulip · 28/04/2021 13:04

I think the whole housing system in the UK is screwed up, and although I think there is an element of greed in people who hoover up houses, there are other reasons for why they do, such as low interest rates on savings - if you have a big chunk of money, buying property is seen as a safe place to put it and increase it, rather than having it sitting in the bank losing value. I can see why you would do it, although I don't agree with it in principle.

Where I live there are so few houses coming up for rent that it's terrifying. If our current landlord ever decides to sell up we will be extremely screwed. We enquired about a house recently and the agent told us they'd had 40 enquiries within 24 hours, and that someone had put down a holding deposit without even viewing the house. Houses come up in our area at the rate of about 1 a month. There is currently one house, a tiny flat and a barn on rightmove within a 10 mile radius of us. We don't have children, so we'd be lowest priority for scarce council housing, and we wouldn't be able to buy as our joint salary is only 40 thousand, so even with a huge deposit we wouldn't be able to borrow enough to buy a house.

If I was the government, I would first of all punitivly tax people who buy second homes that sit empty most of the time. I would also create a scheme where the government as well as building more houses, would purchase properties at market value and then rent them out. They would cost a similar amount to currently reasonably priced private rentals, but prices would be set and capped according to number of rooms / Square footage. Tenants would be able to stay as long as they want, and rent increases would be inflation only, and like with council houses you would be allowed to redecorate within reason and have pets.

CirclesWithinCircles · 28/04/2021 13:05

I also think some of those working in local authorities have to grow up a bit and realise that successful city centres mean high rents. And that the "cracking down on private landlords", or in Edinburgh recently, "cracking down on holiday lets/AirBnBs" means reducing whats on the market.

Its all getting a bit soviet in Edinburgh of late. A lot of brown, ugly new hotels have miraculously been granted planning permission in the city centre, and their owners stand to make a fortune from the decrease in holiday lets/Air BnBs. All holiday lets in Scotland are now to be licensed, which isn't cheap, so obviously those who let out a spare room or cottage during the festival or on the family farm are going to be deterred, and prices are going to go up.

Its utter madness, particularly in the midst of us coming out of a year long lockdown.

Equally, private lets are being "shut down" by the council, so that private landlords have no option but to sign up to the councils scheme of housing homeless people (to make their figures look better)...in the city centre where there are less family homes and more large flats. So you no longer have a city centre attractive to young people starting out in their first job in life who want to live with friends and you begin to create a bit of a ghetto...thats certainly already happened in some parts of the city centre in Aberdeen.

kalikkma · 28/04/2021 13:06

@Mulhollandmagoo

We own a flat that we rent out, it was my husbands before we met, and we would have sold at a loss if we'd have sold, so we rent it out - it covers the mortgage we have to pay, plus our insurances, plus a tiny bit extra incise anything goes wrong that we need to pay to have repaired. the view is that we will use this as a nestegg for our older age, might mean we can retire earlier. Probably not fair to bulk all landlords in together to be fair
We are in the same position. The house we rent is our safety net if we couldn't work or need to retire before our pensions kick in at 67. We didn't buy it as a BTL, but have become landlords due to circumstances.

I don't put the rent up each time the letting agents suggest it. Organise repairs promptly and as long as I am kept informed, don't get agitated if the tenant has occasional problems paying rent on time.

ChickenyChick · 28/04/2021 13:10

peopel and businesses make money from other people's needs everywhere.

In any free and capitalist society

Or even in non-free capitalists societies like China

Are you against profit in general OP? Are you against all investments (including having a pension? Pension funds invest in the stock market)

Or are you just against profit in the housing market?

Or are we talking about full blown communism and no private property?

Dogfan · 28/04/2021 13:11

Usually those houses offered as buy to let are tenanted and the tenants can't be booted out for new owner occupiers so the only reasonable buyers are investors. I see no problem investing in property and a lot of people do this to support them in old age, the alternative being that they would have to turn to the state for support. Some people want to rent, not everyone wants to buy. I think to be honest this is sour grapes!

Ickiness · 28/04/2021 13:13

Well there has to be a rental market for people who either can’t or don’t want the commitment of buying and a mortgage
Therefore there will always be landlords!

You may find that landlords have invested into property as a replacement or top up to pensions since these have become worth less and less. Or maybe as interest on savings is practically non existent they have put the money into property instead of sat in a bank account.

As a landlord you also get taxed on the profit made - difference between the mortgage and the rent - so they are actually putting more money back into the economy.

There is a market for rentals so why shouldn’t people take the opportunity and invest in this market, just as people put their money into all sorts of things??

It’s providing a service to people that want to rent - no services are free, otherwise essentials like fuel and water would be free

It really puzzles me why people get so wound up about landlords

NeedATan · 28/04/2021 13:13

@Porcupineintherough

Out of interest, whyis it so much worse to make money out of housing than out of food, or energy, or water or medical supplies? Should they all ne provided on a not for profit basis also?
I'd love to see some answers to the above.