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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

HR meeting in the morning

53 replies

Abracadabra14 · 14/04/2021 20:36

Sorry to post here but desperate!

I have resigned but made it clear that I feel pushed out. I’ve worked at the company for 20 months and my notice will make it 23 months (so not meeting two years).

There are a multitude of issues which are hard to prove but the main evidential ones are that:

  • we have annual mini promotions, this is based on your performance. We work on projects. For the last 6-8 months I have been utilised 0-10%, people at the same grade have had 70-200% utilisation. I have been asking for work constantly. Without the work I’m unable to show I deserve the promotion (which I know I do). I wasn’t promoted this year as a result.
  • one senior employee, who left a few weeks after telling me, said that I would be a scapegoat for promotions as I didn’t join as a graduate. He then marked me down out of nowhere (not allowed) then agreed he shouldn’t have but it’s too late now (it wasn’t). He was angry with the company and the system it turns out and I was his easy punching bag.
  • during the pandemic I reached out to my work coach multiple times. First was that I had to care for CEV parents and felt very emotionally drained. The second was to explain that I’d been diagnosed with a MH issue that I consider a disability. This coupled with not getting any work has created panic as I’m so not used to working, I live in fear of work. When I have had bits to do I’ve been fine though, it’s just all due to a lack of support and fear of power hungry bosses.

Tomorrow I guess I’m meant to explain my resignation letter. Is there any point going into detail? This is the FIRST time someone has listened to my cries for help. I’ve spoken to several senior people and only upon resignation did they say they could find me work.
Or will it just be not worth my time going into much detail, and should I just nod and arrange my exit interview?

I absolutely did not want to leave. I wanted to stay at least 2 years for CV’s sake.

OP posts:
Cocomarine · 14/04/2021 23:03

How can you say you deserve the promotion, when you’ve been utilised 0-10% for 8 months? It’s the company’s fault you’ve been under utilised, but no-one demonstrates that they’re worth a promotion doing less than 10% work.

I don’t understand your comment about emotional drain of CEV parents and reaching out to your work coach, and then saying work didn’t know. Also your MH issue - I don’t understand who knew and who didn’t. Are you sure your utilisation wasn’t reduced because you raised both those points? (I know in a later post you said the MH issue was lack of utilisation related, but in the first post about it being diagnosed, it didn’t sound like it)

As for the diversity / charity comment... you do realise that the third sector does actually employ people with degrees and 3 years post degree ACA training?

What does, “so I took that badly” mean? Were you unprofessional in your response?

Also, what actually is a “loud voice for change”? What were you actually doing? You said you got annoyed that no-one cared. Engaging and persuading takes time, and it’s hard. It’s a real skill. Change management is one of the hardest aspects of project management - and that’s if you already have senior stakeholder support. If you were loud, demanding change and showing annoyance then you won’t have been bringing people on board. Some places are just toxic environments and you have to accept you can’t change - and get out. But championing change where it can happen is still a delicate matter.

23 months vs 2 years on your CV makes no odds. You’ve got another job to go to, so I’d look forward - not back.

And if you’re seriously 0-10% utilised again - escalate escalate escalate! It sounds like you were not a good fit for this company, nor then for you. Plenty of places already embrace diversity for example, or at least are excited about trying to. Hoping the job you’ve got lined up is one of those 👍🏻

RainingZen · 15/04/2021 03:04

Hi,

Nothing to worry about - exit interviews are very standard process at professional companies, it is a requirement to check you aren't going to bring a case for constructive dismissal and usually management do want to hear the feedback so they can consider how to retain staff.

In all honesty they may have wanted to manage you out of the business, if you took up a lot of management time complaining about all your issues.

At your exit issue, state your reasons for leaving when asked but keep it brief, factual and simple. Try to give tangible examples, things that are actionable for the employer to address. You already have another job to go to, and need to work your notice without exacerbating your MH issues, so don't go to the interview in a state of high emotional stress and word-vomit all your complaints at the HR person.

I'm confused who this "coach" is - that's a weird job title. Did you not have a line manager? A coach would not typically assign work, or have any power over the process. At most thwy may be able to advocate for you with a manager. But usually a coach would be helping YOU to figure out how to solve a problem YOURSELF. Can you explain more about the coaching relationship?

I find it difficult from what you have written to really understand what you wanted the company to do differently. The only really tangible thing I can latch on to is you wanted them to give you more work. I cannot see any firm promoting you if you have not been utilised as there is going to be little evidence of your performance and little opportunity for you to grow and learn.

However as a manager of a team facing a greatly reduced amount of work to allocate between a team of employees, I would have been inclined NOT to risk burdening an employee with CEV family members and MH issues. Perhaps the management felt they were acting in your best interest but did not communicate it very well.

The diversity one is tricky as you haven't provided any examples. Just remember diversity cannot always be achieved overnight. What did you expect them to do and what did they fail to do? Do remember that many management teams were under a HUGE amount of pressure during covid, so I do think if they didn't revolutionise their group-think when you turned up complaining, it is perhaps because they had a lot of other things going on. A lot of changes have been put on hold to free up time to cope with covid.

A lot of managers at the firm where my DH is a senior manager, for example, picked up extra work due to junior staff being furloughed or their hours reduced. For example my DH had to go and do client's stocktakes during the pandemic, something he hasn't done for many years because his junior staff literally all said they were too scared to go because of covid, and their MH would suffer if they were made to do it. So my DH stepped up, even though he is asthmatic. He didn't make a song and dance, just suited up in PPE and crossed his fingers. If someone didn't do that work, the clients would have been let down and possibly lost, and then his employees would have been facing redundancy too. My poor DH did days and days of unpaid weekend overtime just to keep things ticking over. He also spent hours and hours and hours talking with young employees who had covid-related issues, and whose MH was in pieces, or had practical problems wfh in difficult situations. It was emotionally exhausting for him, he was working insane hours trying to help people remotely, keep certain staff from breaking down, manage client expectations during a time of turmoil so that people still had jobs to come back to. And he had his OWN mental health to manage too, and his own family.

The expectation and entitlement of some of his employees to have their MH problems catered to by their employer is frankly breathtaking, and many of these employees don't want to do ANYTHING to help themselves, they expect their employee to be parent, doctor, counsellor, educator. Then they complain bitterly.- it is always about their own needs and how unfair everything is - and at the same tkme they are jealous of peers and don't pull together as a team.

A lot goes on behind the scenes that you probably arent aware of at professional firms, some of it good, some not so good. If you try harder to step outside yourself and consider what else is going on around yoj, you might be better positioned to work out how to get what you want and bring about the change you want to see.

More than once I had to remind my DH he is a manager, not everyone's dad, and an employer DOES NOT have a "duty of care" - they have a contract with you, they have to abide by employment legislation. Yes many employers promise to try to help people to develop both personally and professionally, but if you are bringing a MH disability perhaps the symptoms made you very difficult to support and help, and perhaps the way you presented led the management to conclude it was in your best interest not to be given too much work in a period of time when the management was over-stretched by covid crisis. Perhaps they didnt want to put you into a performance management process, for example, during the pandemic. Perhaps your MH was adversely impacting your performance prior to covid and you weren't really listening to that message. (Why did you have a coach as well as a line manager?)

I can imagine his frustration if my DH had an employee feeling peeved about missed promotion in this time of crisis, and simultaneously complaining about lack of work, when so many clients were facing economic ruin. To be blunt, you are lucky to have a job and a choice of jobs to go to.

Just try to remember that the people you work for are only human, and they ALSO had huge changes to deal with, they ALSO may have families with CEV issues, wfh under huge stress.

In fairness to your employer also: a coach's role is NOT to fix your problems. Go and look up what a coach does. Their role is to help YOU to improve your work performance, often this involves asking thought-provoking questions to help the coachee make important decisions, undertake behavioral changes and take action themselves. Would this explain the question about working for a charity? It sounds like you were making impassioned statements about diversity issues and at the same time making it abundantly clear how much you didnt enjoy working at your current job.

Sometimes when there is a bad "fit" between a company and a new employee, it just takes time to settle down. It has been a hugely disrupted year, and it sounds like you have experienced poor communication, possibly misunderstood the coaching process, and cut the people you work for absolutely NO slack whatsoever as they worked through one of the most challenging times in recent history.

Take some time to reflect on what you would do differently if this happened again in your next job, and consider how to develop your skills in the areas of persuasiveness, empathy, and communicating effectively with senior people.

8bitgame · 15/04/2021 07:35

More than once I had to remind my DH he is a manager, not everyone's dad, and an employer DOES NOT have a "duty of care" - they have a contract with you, they have to abide by employment legislation.

You're giving your DH some spectacularly bad advice here @RainingZen. An employer absolutely has a common law duty of care to its employees. Hmm

Trixie78 · 15/04/2021 07:38

You say you consider your MH issues as a disability but are your issues meet the legal criteria for this? Have you approached HR before? It worth talking to them, if they've been unaware of the issues they wouldn't have been able to deal with them.

Bluntness100 · 15/04/2021 07:45

What is it you wish to achieve? Do you want to stay or do you wish to just let them know so it doesn’t happen again.

Honestly I’d not be telling them you live in fear of work ans are used to not working, I doubt that’s going to encourage them to keep you on.

Also what is your mental health issue, if you are comfortable in saying? Does is officially classify as a disability?

Botanica · 15/04/2021 08:24

I'm genuinely interested in how you think this should have been different. It feels a very 'woe is me' reflection of the situation, given the circumstances and challenges of keeping a business going in a pandemic, and keeping staff employed.

All these managers, coaches and 'power hungry bosses' that have seemingly failed you are people too, balancing their own caring responsibilities and home lives too. I don't think anyone has found the last year or so easy. Everyone has been stretched thin and had to recognise some give or take.

It works both ways as well. In conversation with my CIO recently I asked how she'd personally found the last year, and she said, 'you know what, you're the first person to have asked me that.'

I think you're meeting will go better if you recognise that it's been a tough year for all.

skirk64 · 15/04/2021 08:40

@8bitgame

More than once I had to remind my DH he is a manager, not everyone's dad, and an employer DOES NOT have a "duty of care" - they have a contract with you, they have to abide by employment legislation.

You're giving your DH some spectacularly bad advice here @RainingZen. An employer absolutely has a common law duty of care to its employees. Hmm

I just want to echo this - employers 100% have a duty of care to their employees.

Fucking hell, when I did a health & safety course in my job, it was drummed into me that I had a duty of care to anyone who decided to break into the building at night. A trespasser would be a foreseeable event, and if someone broke in, the building had to be as safe as possible for them.

Talkingmouse · 15/04/2021 09:02

Not sure what you are trying to achieve here. You’ve resigned. HR work for the company, not you. This mtg is standard company procedure, nothing more, nothing less.

You sound quite unfocused.

If you’d posted a few weeks ago I’d say hang in there until the 2 years have passed...

But now...leave with professional dignity, to ensure you get solid references, and focus on getting that next role.

Abracadabra14 · 15/04/2021 09:10

@Cocomarine so to explain a bit better (sorry I was a bit rushed last night) the promotion year runs Jan to December, I was utilised an average of 60% which was in the mid sector compared to my peers. So wasn’t an issue regarding promotion. However, they argued the type of work I was assigned wasn’t what they wanted for promotes - again, not my fault, I did the work I was given.

HOWEVER, I didn’t find out until March this year, since November, I have done nothing except the odd low skilled task that they don’t have enough time to do in a team so ask someone to step in for a few hours. No project - no ability to demonstrate skills.

In the time I had no work I ran a CSR project around diversity as we scored badly against competitors and in general, it’s known we are bad. So I highlighted the short comings. Was assigned to do this, but then every meeting was cancelled, pushed back, I was ignored etc.

Some people got double promoted not through merit but because they were short staffed in a position.

I’m more than aware charity sectors need finance people. But that’s not what he was saying to go to, he meant work for a charity (not volunteer though as I already do that) to bring about change. I worked hard to do my job and I want to remain private sector.

The mental health issues: I decided in a call to be honest about parents when asked how the pandemic was and how we were coping. I mentioned that point. He then spoke about his personal struggles too. Then I had no work, then I was diagnosed, so then I told him. I explained how it’s becoming worse with no work and staring at my computer day in and day out. He seemed clueless as what to do but commented that the mental health support is poor but we do have EAP. I’m certain he didn’t tell anyone.

OP posts:
Abracadabra14 · 15/04/2021 09:16

@RainingZen I really disagree with the majority of what you said, but I’ll answer some points.

A coach is someone levels above you who is the person to put forward your reviews each quarter and then annually for promotion. They are your first port of call. He is also the person who tells people I have no work. So yes, absolutely the right person.

My MH issue has been declared a disability, I didn’t know I had the issue until a series of issues and final diagnosis. I am undergoing treatment. I am doing absolutely everything to make myself 100%. I asked for work, it’s easy enough to do. We got MORE work from the pandemic, because of our business. So what has happened is favourites have been given more work than they can handle and others, like me, are left with nothing. I am not the only person in this position and not the only person who has resigned. This year, 10% of staff in the department resigned (the department isn’t huge)

I have never used up management time with “my issues”. A coach MUST have monthly calls with you for them to meet their promotion check list also.

OP posts:
Cocomarine · 15/04/2021 09:17

That’s sour grapes to accuse other people of getting promoted not through merit.
Don’t bring others down, to push yourself up. Even if it was entirely random that they got “promotion friendly” work assigned and you didn’t, they still performed in that work.
That might be unfair on you, but it’s not fair of you to then say they didn’t deserve promotion. It does all sound very woe is me / someone else’s fault.

TheKeatingFive · 15/04/2021 09:20

again, not my fault, I did the work I was given

A lot of people don’t seem to realise how much this is up to them.

The people who get promotions are the ones who make sure they’re on the right projects. They network with the decision makers to ensure that. They don’t just sit back and wait for what ‘they’re given’.

Now, that way of working isn’t for everyone - and that’s fine. I think you need to accept that you weren’t a good fit for them or they for you. And concentrate on your new job.

rossclare · 15/04/2021 09:29

Honestly, you sound like a bit of hard work.

EATmum · 15/04/2021 09:44

Impossible for any of us to understand how/why this has arisen, but it sounds like things will be best for you with a new employer - so this is an opportunity for a positive new start.
Just also to add, resignation is a unilateral act - they don't have to accept it, you've resigned and that's complete. Whatever happens at this meeting - unless you retract it (with their agreement) there's no change.

Abracadabra14 · 15/04/2021 10:32

@TheKeatingFive

again, not my fault, I did the work I was given

A lot of people don’t seem to realise how much this is up to them.

The people who get promotions are the ones who make sure they’re on the right projects. They network with the decision makers to ensure that. They don’t just sit back and wait for what ‘they’re given’.

Now, that way of working isn’t for everyone - and that’s fine. I think you need to accept that you weren’t a good fit for them or they for you. And concentrate on your new job.

There's ethical walls between every project, with code names, you can't know about them until assigned. So it would be impossible for me to put myself on something, other than speaking to management which I do every monday.

@rossclare ha maybe I am.

OP posts:
Abracadabra14 · 15/04/2021 10:33

@EATmum

Impossible for any of us to understand how/why this has arisen, but it sounds like things will be best for you with a new employer - so this is an opportunity for a positive new start. Just also to add, resignation is a unilateral act - they don't have to accept it, you've resigned and that's complete. Whatever happens at this meeting - unless you retract it (with their agreement) there's no change.
Thanks, good to know. I think it will be a positive move. I am just unsure whether to mention anything - I have evidence for some of the things I've said. It's also been brought up in several peer meetings.

@Cocomarine they were told the promotion was not due to merit (the double) the single promotion may have been. It caused outrage amongst the other segments.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 15/04/2021 10:42

So it would be impossible for me to put myself on something

Did you identify senior people you wanted to work with? Tell them about the kind of experience you were looking for and what you would bring to any projects they brought you in to? That’s what I’m talking about.

All I’m getting from your posts is a need to establish that it ‘wasn’t your fault’ that it didn’t work out. That’s irrelevant.

It’s always up to you to navigate the company culture of your workplace. No where is perfect. Some places are easier to figure out than others. Some are a better fit
with your personality/ways of working than others.

Stop wasting energy on how you were ‘wronged’ here and learn some lessons for the future.

DrManhattan · 15/04/2021 10:50

At my work you hand it in and off you pop ....
Nice that they give you an opportunity to discuss

CarrotVan · 15/04/2021 11:13

There's no win for you here. Be honest, be factual, and move on

If you really feel the need be honest and factual on a GlassDoor review too.

Abracadabra14 · 15/04/2021 14:10

@TheKeatingFive

So it would be impossible for me to put myself on something

Did you identify senior people you wanted to work with? Tell them about the kind of experience you were looking for and what you would bring to any projects they brought you in to? That’s what I’m talking about.

All I’m getting from your posts is a need to establish that it ‘wasn’t your fault’ that it didn’t work out. That’s irrelevant.

It’s always up to you to navigate the company culture of your workplace. No where is perfect. Some places are easier to figure out than others. Some are a better fit
with your personality/ways of working than others.

Stop wasting energy on how you were ‘wronged’ here and learn some lessons for the future.

Yes I did do this, I spoke to countless people. It's just known people have their favourites (as they've worked with them before, quite understandable) so they give them the projects first. People have been arguing about it for months so I'm not alone.

There's not much to learn other than I don't fit, obviously. I think I did everything right.

I used to work at the Big 4 and never had any issues at all. I only left for a different path. So I am aware I'm more than suited to corporate life.

OP posts:
Abracadabra14 · 15/04/2021 14:11

@CarrotVan

There's no win for you here. Be honest, be factual, and move on

If you really feel the need be honest and factual on a GlassDoor review too.

I agree, I am also sure HR don't care as long as I won't sue.

I'll have the talk. They've already cancelled it once. So hopefully it happens later today :)

No one else will speak to me until I have this conversation. When I explained I was going to resign I suddenly got asked if I'd not resign if they found me work, and they found me a whole project in 15 mins. Madness.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 15/04/2021 14:15

There's not much to learn other than I don't fit, obviously.

Ok. Then the answer to the questions posed in your OP should be pretty clear.

Abracadabra14 · 15/04/2021 21:10

As an update: it went surprisingly well and has lead to an investigation. The HR woman in my department (not the corporate main one - she just noted my points and asked if I was ok) has said that some of the points I mentioned she has noticed, one shocked her and has resulted in investigation as apparently there’s been issues there before and she also mentioned that she thinks there’s a sexist and classist culture with hints of racism - so they are making people attend training. I was shocked at what she said but she did say she has two hats: one for protecting the company and one for me as she is upset by my plight.

They have asked to see what they can do to keep me.

OP posts:
MrsRockAndRoll · 20/04/2021 16:31

Would you want to stay?

Lndnmummy · 20/04/2021 16:52

You have raised points in your resignation which they’ll need to look into from a risk perspective to see if you are likely to have recourse should you make a claim. That’s pretty standard procedure. They will not have instigated this meeting out of regard for your well-being or doing “right by you”. Sounds like an unfortunate fit and that you will have a better time at another place. I think it would be helpful for you to seek some support for your mental health in order to build up some resilience.

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