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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it is impossible these days to start and end a job application?

32 replies

ButtonMoony · 05/04/2021 11:53

Without getting it wrong?

I need to apply for a job. Its a generic advert. Its a massive company. I have no idea who will read the CV and cover letter.

20 years ago I would have put "Dear Sir/Madam" or "To whom it may concern"

Now I feel both are antiquated and likely to be seen as incorrect?

How the hell do you start and then sign off a letter these days without offending someone?

Yo?
Hey?
Just launch straight in with no greeting?

What are the dos and don'ts please dear mumsnet?

OP posts:
Thehawki · 05/04/2021 12:04

I’m 23 and I always put ‘Dear Sir/Madam’ it’s what my brother and my friends also write. I think it’s still the done thing for stuff like job applications/professional settings where you’re trying to make an impression.

Try not to over-think it, just be polite, as you would have been 20 years ago. People still expect this language in professional settings. I don’t think it would show anyone’s age or anything about them, other than them being polite.

Wobblesandchickuns · 05/04/2021 12:14

The rules have never changed. Do what you have always done.

ButtonMoony · 05/04/2021 12:20

@Wobblesandchickuns

The rules have never changed. Do what you have always done.
Pretty much every Google result this morning says different, and my gut feeling was that it doesn't work these days, hence asking for real world opinions.

Interesting that the limited response here so far says it is OK. Everything I googled says it isn't.

"
Dear Sir or Madam: Is It Appropriate to Use It? Best Alternatives
BlogCover LetterDear Sir or Madam: Is It Appropriate to Use It? Best Alternatives
Dear Sir or Madam: Is It Appropriate to Use It? Best Alternatives
Starting a cover letter with “Dear Sir or Madam” will definitely tell the hiring manager something about you—but nothing good. Learn better alternatives to this letter salutation.

Cory Streiff
Cory Streiff
Career Expert
Updated 02/25/2021

Okay, maybe the last time you heard the word “madam” was in your high school production of Hamlet.

But somewhere along the way you learned that “Dear Sir or Madam” is the way to address a letter formally. And you should use it when you want to sound professional, respectful, and sophisticated.

Well—in reality, if you write “Dear Sir or Madam” on a cover letter or business email, you’re more likely to get an eye roll than a head nod.

Read this guide to learn:

What using “Dear Sir or Madam” will say about you.
Why you should avoid this business letter salutation.
Better alternatives to “Dear Sir or Madam”.

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Perfect Cover Letter Examples For Any Job

“Dear Sir or Madam” as a Letter Salutation

“Dear Sir or Madam” is a formal way to address a letter to a specific person whose name, title, or gender is unknown. There are certain situations when this letter salutation can be used, but it’s best to avoid it as it comes off as old-timey, impersonal, and lazy.

The reason why these generic letter salutations should be avoided is because you’re always better off addressing the letter using the recipient’s name. And with the advent of the internet, there’s almost no excuse for not knowing who you’re writing to.

But what if you’ve scoured the internet and still came up empty-handed? Can you use “Dear Sir or Madam” then?

Even in that case, there are better alternatives. Let’s explore what’s wrong with “Dear Sir or Madam” and when to use each alternative.

Is “Dear Sir or Madam” Appropriate for a Cover Letter?

No it isn’t—“Dear Sir/Madam” should be avoided whenever possible; it’s one part of a cover letter that you can feel safe leaving out. While not always inappropriate, there are much better alternatives if you want to give a good impression from the start.

To illustrate why, let’s walk a mile in Mary’s shoes. Who’s Mary? She’s the hiring manager at Acme Co. looking for a new marketing coordinator. Mary is busy at work reviewing candidates when she receives a notification there’s a new applicant. A resume arrives in her inbox with a cover letter attached. The first thing she reads is “Dear Sir or Madam”...

Now—what does that salutation tell Mary? A few things. She automatically knows: (a) the sender is a stranger who didn’t bother to look up her name, and (b) the letter’s contents might be a generic cover letter that’s been copy-pasted a hundred times. Do you think Mary feels inspired to carefully read the letter and give her utmost attention?

Chances are Mary is going to spend a few seconds skimming the letter and go straight to the resume.

Read more: Perfect Cover Letter: How to Write One?

“Dear Sir or Madam” in Emails

Avoid using “Dear Sir/Madam” in emails as well. Emails are less formal than cover letters, so starting with “Dear Sir or Madam” feels even more out of place. It’s always best to address an email directly to the recipient.

Read more: Email Cover Letter Sample

Why “Dear Sir or Madam” Falls Short

Here’s what the problems with “Dear Sir or Madam” boil down to:

It’s generic and lazy. You have the Internet at your fingertips. You should be able to Google something—anything more specific than Sir or Madam. Even if you can’t find a specific name, you should be able to find a specific department or position.
It’s outdated. Unless you’re writing a letter to someone at the Royal British Society, chances are the recipient will wonder how you time-traveled from 19th-century Victorian England.
It’s not gender inclusive. The recipient may not identify as a Sir or a Madam. In that case, your recipient hasn’t even started reading your letter and you’re already off on the wrong foot. "

OP posts:
PriestessofPing · 05/04/2021 12:25

I get around this by writing ‘good morning’ or ‘good afternoon’. Seems to work fine.

ButtonMoony · 05/04/2021 12:26

Wow. Dont know why it pasted all that and we have no edit button - sorry

OP posts:
ScarfaceCwaw · 05/04/2021 12:27

"Dear Hiring Manager" is fine.

LadyTmalia · 05/04/2021 12:27

Your above senseless post is spouting gibberish.

Unless its a job application with a company comprising of 2 people where you know the names, "Dear Sir/Madam" is utterly professional and should be used.

I interview and CV sift for a company with 11k+ people and would never dismiss an application based on the Dear Sir/Madam line. I have never come across a "yo" though, so may think differently when that time comes.
I think you are overthinking this.

StrugglingToBeStylish · 05/04/2021 12:28

Cory streff sounds like a work pain in the arse

How about
“To whomever you identify as ?”

FictionalCharacter · 05/04/2021 12:30

All those examples you posted look like they're from American websites. They do things very differently when it comes to applications and interviews. Also, it's sometimes impossible to find out a name to address it to, because the employer doesn't want to make people's names public. Sir/Madam is fine in the UK for formal job applications.

BigPaperBag · 05/04/2021 12:30

I would put ‘to whom it may concern’. Then you won’t have to worry about any pronouns if it’s likely to be seen by someone who’s worried about that Confused

UrAWizHarry · 05/04/2021 12:32

Just use Sir/Madam and stop overthinking it, unless you know the person's name, and then you use that of course.

ElaineMarieBenes · 05/04/2021 12:33

I have written ‘to whom it may concern’ if I don’t have a name. More recently I have written ‘to the (or FAO the Hiring Manager’)?

EveryDayIsADuvetDay · 05/04/2021 12:33

can you through googling find the name of the HR director/Head (or ghastly job title of talent manager) - or the line manager?
Equally, like PPs, I wouldn't be but off by sir/madam on a recruitment letter.
Assuming you're in the UK, are the sites that you're looking at UK based?

Panicatthegarden · 05/04/2021 12:37

If I don't know the name of the person I am addressing my cover letter/ application to I will write "Dear Company Name". If i know it's going to a specific department within a larger company I would add that in too.

I do agree that Sir/ Madam seems a little dated these days, not as bad as just "Dear Sirs" though! When I was in charge of hiring at a previous job cvs with this on went straight in the bin!

FourteenthDoctor · 05/04/2021 12:40

Corey is a fuckwit

Morgoth · 05/04/2021 12:43

Dear Sir/Madam or To Whom it may concern or the Hiring Managers name is both safe, absolutely fine and not outdated. It’s just a placeholder greeting address and isn’t taken literally by the actual person reading it. It’s formal and polite and gives a good impression immediately.

Camomila · 05/04/2021 12:47

I write work emails every day starting with "To whom it may concern"

I put "Dear Sir or Madam" in cover letters and I used to use it in emails when I worked in a solicitors, it was our "house style" for starting a letter.

Rukaya · 05/04/2021 12:50

It’s not gender inclusive. The recipient may not identify as a Sir or a Madam. In that case, your recipient hasn’t even started reading your letter and you’re already off on the wrong foot

Seems like a good way to weed out woke twats that you definitely don't want to work for or with.

ButtonMoony · 05/04/2021 14:15

Slightly surprised by the responses tbh.

Imagine asking the same on the feminism page!!

OP posts:
FlyingBurrito · 05/04/2021 14:20

And you weren't surprised by the word salad I assume you copied and pasted above? What was that all about?

Imo you are overthinking it, what's wrong with any of the sensible suggestions above?

growinggreyer · 05/04/2021 14:24

Why do you think the feminist section would be any different? Are you being goady or is this a genuine question?

UrAWizHarry · 05/04/2021 14:29

@Panicatthegarden

If I don't know the name of the person I am addressing my cover letter/ application to I will write "Dear Company Name". If i know it's going to a specific department within a larger company I would add that in too.

I do agree that Sir/ Madam seems a little dated these days, not as bad as just "Dear Sirs" though! When I was in charge of hiring at a previous job cvs with this on went straight in the bin!

That's really odd. So you would write a letter starting (for example) Dear Asda?

I would have a giggle at that, to be honest. The letter is being read by a person, not a company.

Babyroobs · 05/04/2021 14:31

@ButtonMoony

Without getting it wrong?

I need to apply for a job. Its a generic advert. Its a massive company. I have no idea who will read the CV and cover letter.

20 years ago I would have put "Dear Sir/Madam" or "To whom it may concern"

Now I feel both are antiquated and likely to be seen as incorrect?

How the hell do you start and then sign off a letter these days without offending someone?

Yo?
Hey?
Just launch straight in with no greeting?

What are the dos and don'ts please dear mumsnet?

We've been told at work that we can no longer address letters with Dear sir/ madam as people may be non binary.

I generally address it to whom it may concern.

LibertyMole · 05/04/2021 14:35

Dear Sir/Madam is fine from a feminist perspective.

Trisolaris · 05/04/2021 14:37

I often don’t include cover letters anymore (depending on the application process). Many places now seem to have them as optional and recruiters admit that they don’t really read them for professional roles and only spend about 10 seconds assessing cvs before deciding whether to invite for interview. I have to really want to work somewhere to bother with anything complicated.

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