How to stop self-objectification !

[emotionalsupportsandwich]

NC.

Few examples of the types of things I mean - making myself look pretty for some imaginary third party when I'm by myself, putting the vast majority of my focus into appearing "sexy" during sex rather than enjoying the sex, immediately having to rush off and shave / paint my nails / apply makeup if I plan to meet up with a man (things I wouldn't do solely for myself).

I.e. the Margaret Atwood quote - Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it's all a male fantasy: that you're strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.

Is it possible to even stop this or reduce it? My life is dictated by how I perceive others to perceive me.

It's hard because women also judge. I challenge you to wear shorts in the summer without shaving your legs. You won't just be worried about how men perceive you. I don't shave my armpits and haven't for decades. I do shave my legs if my legs are out or if I'm shagging.

I also think there's something in wanting to feel sexy and I don't feel sex with unshaven legs. I don't do the rest of it though OP and don't feel the need but you're going against social conditioning. Once your eyes are opened to it, you see it but it's like being unplugged from the Matrix.

Cheers, Poppy. I used to have a male friend who would slag me off for my "hairy" legs (which for the record, are not actually especially hairy) so that set me back a bit!

I hear what you mean about female judgement though. I follow a lot of plus-size influencers who go by the idea of posting realistic pictures not idealised ones (i.e. not sucking the gut in for example) which my automatic judgemental reaction is to think "Oh, I'd have posed differently there to look thinner". Obviously I snap myself out of that fast because it's unreasonable, but it's tricky to feel confident despite knowing there is judgement!

I guess all our identities are based on how we are perceived by others, or how we think others see us, to a certain extent. finding a true 'self' is a massive quest and some say a self doesn't even exist.

if you have recognised yourself that your self-perception is via male objectification maybe that's a first step to leading a more authentic more genuine life. its sad to deprive yourself of sexual pleasure because of what is essentially an insecurity. self-confidence and trust in yourself needs to be nurtured.

meditation might help?

Yes, Stovetop I think it's social conditioning and insecurity joining forces to mean I have to be pretty / non-threatening (no hairy legs supposedly) in order to have social value. Why oh-why is so much of my life focused around wanting men to want me that I don't even like? It's bonkers.

Anyway, apologies - small tangent. I'd just really like to knock the watcher out of my head hahaha.

YES, I do the same but I catch my thinking. I find that when my self esteem is low, I'm worse for judging others but I do know I'm doing it and I reflect on it. I think actually seeing that you're doing it is the important thing. A lot of people don't see it and it's automatic, they don't reflect on it and can't see it. That's what I meant by the Matrix, you feel as though you're the only one who is seeing these things.

I had an eating disorder for a long time and a feminist book actually helped me out of it as part of it. I think it's so important to value yourself as a woman and as a human being. I abandoned womanhood for a long time as I was brought up to see girls and women as negative - girly, sissy, wimpy - not like a boy. Need to be like a boy to be respected and to respect myself.

It's certainly been a journey. I'm glad that fashion places like Asos are not photoshopping their models.

I also think women judging other women are prisoners of this male thing of dictating whats hot and what's not. they're just fearful underneath it all. probably a lot of men are just conditioned by the media to think hairy legs or a natural non-tiny are 'wrong' in some way. if a man appreciates your appearance, he's not really appreciating the true you, and a genuine loving, understanding and trusting relationship goes way beyond being a size 10 or having a tan.

I really think both men and women are fearful and cling on to tropes of how to look and behave rather than be true to themselves.

Me too, Poppy, I think I read somewhere that the first automatic thought that pops into your head is the socially conditioned one and then your second thought is the "true" one (e.g. the most accurate reflection of your genuine thoughts / personality). I've noticed mine is worsened by guilt though - e.g. I have that pre-determined bitterness towards other women, I'll think a nasty thought and then feel guilty about it and feel like a worse person which then makes me think worse things about other women. It's a very self-involved cycle!
The worst part is I judge women for things that I wouldn't want to be judged for - e.g. if I saw someone excessively hairy at the beach I'd have a snap reaction in my mind to it.

If you have the name of that book I'd love to read it, seems like good stuff!

The way you perceive yourself/others/the world around you are encapsulated in your core beliefs; the experiences you were exposed to in your early years which made you believe certain 'facts' about yourself and others.

Problem is that most of those facts are wrong at best, and damaging at worst. Then you apply these same facts to you adult life and bingo! You're fucked in an serious business meeting because your lucky biro is missing...

I am by far 100% happy with how I look however once I stopped judging myself I soon stopped caring if others judged me.

I have many people in my life who like and love me for me not how I look. I truly mean that and it took me 20 years to cotton on!

I am not meeting most people in my life for the first time so they no longer judge me on my appearance they judge me on who I am.

I met a colleague this week for the first time ever yet we first talked last March! We have built up a friendship over the phone so much so we met ( social distancing) in my local park. Sitting with her I never once thought about how she or I looked I just enjoyed her company.

Sorry I went off on a tangent.
My point is try caring less about looking perfect as that way you have more time to focus on the more important aspects if people.

I shaved my head when I was about 11, Stovetop and it was so fucking freeing! But now I'm too worried about not having the long, pretty hair that men like which is absolutely ridiculous honestly.

I'm glad to know other women have the same reactive judgements and I'm not quite as much of a nasty cow as I thought

Hmm how did I change?

I stopped giving a fuck about what men wanted or liked firstly. This is mainly because I stopped liking men as a group. Individually I like them but overall I’m not keen.
So that helped because I genuinely couldn’t give a fuck if some little scroat in Aldi thinks I’m attractive or not.

I did care, I do still care about my appearance of course. I like to look trendy and I love make up and I enjoy fashion. I like to feel fresh and like I’m up on trends etc but it’s not to do with attractiveness - most fashions are ugly to the male gaze anyway. My DP looks at Mom jeans like Wtf are they. Fashion doesn’t always equal sexy - I like androgynous clothes and lots of men don’t like that general look. So whilst I care about my appearance- it’s not to be attractive, if that makes sense.

I suppose the two biggest factors are understanding and valuing yourself and age. Self esteem and self worth are crucial. You are not your face or your body or your hair, you are the spirit and soul inside. Whatever you present to the world, your real true self is valuable and worthy and is NOT determined by your attractiveness or how attractive you’re deemed to be by another person.
Also, it’s perfectly ok if someone doesn’t find you attractive. That doesn’t make you less. It doesn’t alter your worth or your attractiveness.
Peaches are delicious, but there will lots of people who don’t like peaches. It’s totally subjective and therefore you have zero need to try and appeal to the general masses.

A lot of this comes with age - for me it began in my early 30s and has matured to a place I am truly comfortable with myself (90% of the time) by age 40. I wish I’d worked on it earlier. There is only one person to satisfy in your life and that is yourself.

I remember one time a while back, when I felt insecure, I put on my sexiest dress and posed in front of the mirror to cheer myself up (I know sad right) and then
suddenly
I realised
I was 35, that my 'beauty' (not fab just standard pretty) wasn't going to last, it was fading and the web of security that I had unconsciously been relying on, as I felt I was 'approved of' by society, that web was gonna vanish quite soon! i saw wrinkles starting and a few greys. you age, the looks don't last, all the mascara and posing is ultimately futile.

I have worked to get meaning in other areas, friends, books, just thinking about what I believe etc.

interesting about the 'watcher' though, we all do it to some extent I'm sure, some people live their whole lives as if they're on a stage imo.

These things reflect our sense of identity, I think. When I was little I hated anything feminine, wouldn't wear makeup or dresses or do anything with my hair, etc., but did that mean I didn't care how people saw me? No, it meant I took care that people didn't think I was girlie.

Now that I'm older, eh... It's toned down quite a bit. I'll wear dresses occasionally, I no longer automatically reject pink and I shave (DH would actually prefer I didn't, but the look and feel of body hair is ick to me), but I still don't do makeup or nails or hair, not even for my wedding. It wouldn't be "me" if I did that, and people would wonder what was wrong.

My point, I guess, is that we all have aspects of our identity that are caught up on how others see us. For some it's wanting to look "sexy" in the traditional sense, for others it's wanting to look successful or confident, for some it's caring a lot that people think you don't care.

I don't think it's imposed by men exclusively though, not that men are exempt from it. I have lots of male friends (not to mention family) and all of them Cate about projecting a certain image.

@Ohpulltheotherone I genuinely couldn’t give a fuck if some little scroat in Aldi thinks I’m attractive or not
yeah!!

Interesting thread OP. I’m still musing but that’s a really unsettling quote from Atwood I hadn’t heard before.

@emotionalsupportsandwich

Me too, Poppy, I think I read somewhere that the first automatic thought that pops into your head is the socially conditioned one and then your second thought is the "true" one (e.g. the most accurate reflection of your genuine thoughts / personality). I've noticed mine is worsened by guilt though - e.g. I have that pre-determined bitterness towards other women, I'll think a nasty thought and then feel guilty about it and feel like a worse person which then makes me think worse things about other women. It's a very self-involved cycle! The worst part is I judge women for things that I wouldn't want to be judged for - e.g. if I saw someone excessively hairy at the beach I'd have a snap reaction in my mind to it.

If you have the name of that book I'd love to read it, seems like good stuff!

Some books that really helped my feminist journey:

For my eating disorder (anorexia): The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf

Other feminist books:

The Female Eunuch by Germaine Greer
The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir
Feminine Mystique by Friedan

Others that may be of interest:

Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie: We should all be feminists
Roxane Gay: Bad Feminist
Men Explain things to Me by Rebecca Solnit

My eating disorder was triggered by a boyfriend who kept going on about his skinny ex and her skinny legs. I decided to diet and then got down to five stone. It still gets triggered but I have done a load of reading around it but Fat is a Feminist Issue (Susie Orbach) and I do see that it is society forcing me into this impossible ideal.

@poppyzbrite4

It's hard because women also judge. I challenge you to wear shorts in the summer without shaving your legs. You won't just be worried about how men perceive you. I don't shave my armpits and haven't for decades. I do shave my legs if my legs are out or if I'm shagging.

I also think there's something in wanting to feel sexy and I don't feel sex with unshaven legs. I don't do the rest of it though OP and don't feel the need but you're going against social conditioning. Once your eyes are opened to it, you see it but it's like being unplugged from the Matrix.

why do you feel unsexy with unshaven legs but not a decades worth of armpit hair? just curious

I think my unshaven legs look masculine and unsightly. My armpit hair is not profuse or dark, so it doesn't really show. I actually love it and it makes me feel sexy. For those who don't shave, there is a particular smell to armpit hair which is very sensual and I love sniffing my armpits.

@poppyzbrite4

I think my unshaven legs look masculine and unsightly. My armpit hair is not profuse or dark, so it doesn't really show. I actually love it and it makes me feel sexy. For those who don't shave, there is a particular smell to armpit hair which is very sensual and I love sniffing my armpits.

nice answer

I don’t consider myself a particularly confident person however I rarely care what other people think of me, men or women. I haven’t always been like this but it just happened one day, I tend to look clean and dress nicely but it’s purely for me. I made a decision a while ago to be nice to people, I think I was judgemental and I have made friends with a similar outlook, I am far happier now, if someone has an issue with me I am sure the issue is with them! I feel secure with who I am. I enjoy people as friends male and female and don’t feel all men are anything as all women aren’t.

What an interesting quote though!

@poppyzbrite4 best reading recommendations ever! Lots of my favourites in there

Love the quote OP!

[quote LadyOfLittleLeisure]@poppyzbrite4 best reading recommendations ever! Lots of my favourites in there