To think you can’t get arsey about an unpaid invoice...

[Merryoldgoat]

... if you’ve never checked to see it’s been received?

Someone popped into my office today to ask if there was an issue with payment. My clerk is working from home so I said I’d check.

As I’m bringing up the account he said ‘it’s from Feb 20’.

I won’t bore you with the entire conversation but since he’s supplied his services for around 10 years, and his bills are always paid within 2 weeks, isn’t it reasonable to think he might’ve noticed sooner than 13 months and check we’d received it?

He said ‘I thought I’d check before sending you a rude letter’ which just irritated me.

Obv this isn’t a big deal but I’m irked.

@Merryoldgoat

Purchase order systems are not necessary for all businesses

They should be. If they aren't you leave yourself wide open to disputes and potential scams.

And threads like this one!

It would be a none issue if you had a system like that... which is my entire point.

@Tinydinosaur

YANBU We have this issue sometimes. Even with customers who repeatedly don't bloody pay until I've chased them several times I'm always polite. "I've just gone through my accounts and noticed an invoice for yourselves wasn't paid, it's from Feb 20 so probably lost under alot of paperwork. Here's a copy. Could you pay as soon as you get a chance please, my apologies for the delay noticing this." Invoices get lost, forgotten about, end up in spam folders and never read. You always assume it's a mistake.

Are you using "yourselves" in an ironic Mumsnet way

Maybe he was a bit arsey OP but the past year has meant all kinds of admin has gone to pot, not a biggie imo. Just becase you don't have the invoice doesn't mean he hasn't declared it in his income for 19/20, that doesn't follow at all.

@Merryoldgoat

So yes there is a fair chance this is actually the OP's job to check. And if its not, I have to question why there isn't a PO system to protect from scammers / to ensure there aren't issues with cash flow.

It’s not my job to check.

There isn’t a PO system because the infrastructure required for a relatively small business doesn’t make sense when review the costs vs benefits.

It’s is generally perfectly sufficient to ask budget holders to use their budget code and initials before placing orders. They’re budgets are small and do not present a risk.

The larger budgets ARE managed by me and approval goes to committee and therefore all are approved and signed off.

I worked for 12 years for a company which was the MD/owner, me and one/two others.

It wasn't exactly huge. And it needed a PO system MORE than a larger company PRECISELY because it was small and needed to manage its cash flow very tightly / because it was more vulnerable to potential scams.

So YABU. You've basically just admitted your system isn't robust enough and you are taking shortcuts and then wonder why you have someone ringing up 12 months later over what is your oversight every bit as much as theirs...

I rest my case.

But there's obviously an issue with your company's system because the budget holder didn't chase the invoice that they had authorised and no-one in budgeting or in the budget-holder's management chain noticed that a service had been received but payment wasn't made. There should be some kind of check and balance to pick up mistakes like that. Otherwise, taking it to its extreme, your company could suddenly be inundated by year-old invoices which would adversely affect cashflow and budgeting for that year.

If its over 60 days and you've got the purchase history it should be

What does this mean?

I mean I won’t pay it without correct approval.

I worked for people like you at the Local Authority which is why I left.

Christ alive I give up.

In our business we give 30 days, if an invoice isn’t paid after 45 days I chase it with an overdue invoice, and again at 60 days, if not paid by then I follow with a phone call, not difficult. This is not hard and what he should have done. I also track every invoice that comes in and appoint it to its job, but if an invoice doesn’t turn up in post or in my emails I can’t mind read it needs paying, that’s the suppliers job to chase, it very rarely happens, as most things are on accounts so you get a statement at end of month to tally with, and suppliers know we pay well so if something slips through they generally give me a call to check. He should have been in contact by April, so yes Ide feel exactly like you do.

Thank you @Pinksmyfavoritecolour

There’s nothing like this place to make you want to shut your head in a door sometimes.

It’s like if you don’t post the complete workings of every single background detail the original question can’t be answered.

Priceless that you whinged about a sole trader not keeping up to date book-keeping but then go on to say that your organisation doesn't have any system in place to check goods/services bought!

@Merryoldgoat

If its over 60 days and you've got the purchase history it should be

What does this mean?

I mean I won’t pay it without correct approval.

I worked for people like you at the Local Authority which is why I left.

What does 60 days mean???

Jesus wept. You need to take a course in bookkeeping.

60 days means your invoice is over 60days since being issued. All companies in both the private and public sector use the term in accounts. Its a cash flow management system.

Customers / Suppliers all have set payment terms. For example payment on delivery or an account which needs to be paid when it reaches 30 days. If it goes to 60days its very overdue (and the point you start getting stroppy calls). At 90 days legal letters are not uncommon.

This is very very basic level stuff used everywhere.

Anyone working in accounts really should know this.

@Merryoldgoat

Christ alive I give up.

I think you bloody should if you know that little about bookkeeping!!!! I'd hate to see your books!

I hear you, OP. It's amazing how many small companies don't tie up invoices & receipts, don't send statements.
On the plus-side, when the accountant spots it months later it makes us look like the good guys.

He's a sole trader

Makes no difference. If it is a business, then you can have your year-end at any time of the financial year. It was probably 31st December if he's just found out about this unpaid invoice.

On your personal tax return there is a question in the self-employed section which asks for the date the business accounts were made up to.

Also, it would depend on whether he treats his earnings on a cash or accruals basis. If it is calculated on when invoices are raised, then it would be included in last year's accounts. If it is when payment is received, then it would be in this year's accounts. Lots of small traders operate on the received basis. They don't want to have to pay tax on earnings they haven't received.

I genuinely have only had about 3 invoices emailed and not put on the system in the last 3 years

You've had multiple errors over a short time span and you're annoyed when someone chases an unpaid invoice.

@RedToothBrush

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I don’t mean what does your comment mean in the LITERAL sense - of course I know what 60 days means in terms of accounting.

I was replying to a comment which said as I seem to know it’s a valid invoice why didn’t I chase it up so I said as it’s from a recognised supplier I’d treat it as valid but it wouldn’t pay it without checking it’s accurate and getting the proper authorisation. That’s what I meant when I said it didn’t mean I’d pay it immediately, as in I wouldn’t just pay without checking.

I can’t work out if you’re wilfully misunderstanding me for fun or if you’re being antagonist for some other reason.

I think a lot of people here must work in big business’s, and for other people, ours is a small family business so it’s me personally who will suffer if things don’t add up properly, and only me in the office doing everything, and we talk to each other and know every job inside out. I don’t have to worry if someone else doesn’t do their job properly, if something goes wrong I only have myself to blame.

I never thought there would come a time when the highlight of my day was an online accountancy pissing contest.

I think it’s because one of my bug bears is self employed people who don’t keep good records

As a self-employed person my major bug bear is clients who don't pay in a timely fashion. Or at all, in some cases. ¯\ (ツ)/¯

[quote Merryoldgoat]@RedToothBrush

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I don’t mean what does your comment mean in the LITERAL sense - of course I know what 60 days means in terms of accounting.

I was replying to a comment which said as I seem to know it’s a valid invoice why didn’t I chase it up so I said as it’s from a recognised supplier I’d treat it as valid but it wouldn’t pay it without checking it’s accurate and getting the proper authorisation. That’s what I meant when I said it didn’t mean I’d pay it immediately, as in I wouldn’t just pay without checking.

I can’t work out if you’re wilfully misunderstanding me for fun or if you’re being antagonist for some other reason.[/quote]
No i just think your accounting system is an utter pile of crap and you have no idea how or why systems exist and why this is a complete non issue and its your fault as much as theirs and you have absolutely no reason to be whinging.

I have no idea what your problem is with someone chasing money they are legitimately owed 12 months later, other than it kind of annoys you for some bizarre reason. You haven't a leg to stand on!!!

@islockdownoveryet

I’ve worked in accounts for years it happens often. I remember one job I was responsible for all the invoices paid and one supplier would often chase up invoices months later but I never had them . She said emailed them , ok they can go in junk or the security software may have blocked it but I used to say resend the original email . Could never do that because she hadn’t sent them . Some companies admin is shit and they phase it out instead of admitting not sent . It’s happened loads of times over the years sometimes they admit not sent or sent to wrong person or email address wrong . I’d just sort out payment and let it go .

I send hundreds of invoices a week by email. I don't keep the sent emails, there are way too many. They get deleted.

In any case they are automatically generated by the accounts package and are sent to the email on the system for that customer. If the invoice is raised, then I know for certain that it has been sent. Especially if they have received the ones immediately before and after, and the email address hasn't changed. I keep independent records of customer email address changes because I've got wise to it being used as an excuse.

Several times a week I chase overdue accounts and people tell me they haven't had an invoice. I know that either: a - someone missed it or deleted it by mistake from their inbox, or b - they have got it and are telling me they haven't, so they can use it as an excuse to pay late.

Some people think that credit controllers came down in the last shower

All the sole traders ive dealt with did POs!

@Butchyrestingface

I think it’s because one of my bug bears is self employed people who don’t keep good records

As a self-employed person my major bug bear is clients who don't pay in a timely fashion. Or at all, in some cases. ¯\ (ツ)/¯

But if your bill wasn’t paid after, say, 30 days, what would you do?

And if that client usually paid you within 2 weeks without exception, would you think they were dicking you about? Or that maybe they’d not received your bill?

All I’m saying is this guy didn’t chase a bill for 13 months and was arsey with me when he had never even sent it and I was ‘a bit irked’.

And some posters have taken this as an opportunity to act the big ‘I am’ over purchase ledger transactions.

That’s it.

You are irked he doesn’t keep records matching up his invoices to payments, but also you don’t keep records of what invoices are expected? Both parties have a missing link in their accounting which has led to this situation so you and him are fairly equally unreasonable. Slightly more him than you as he is the one more likely to lose money over it.

At least he asked and checked nicely rather than stroppily.

His credit control department must be useless if it wasn't on the remittance.
His approach was very rude.

@BoyTree

I never thought there would come a time when the highlight of my day was an online accountancy pissing contest.

I’m not gonna lie, I’m a bit surprised I got any replies!