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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel uneasy about how quiet everyone is about this happening?

270 replies

Maxnon · 19/03/2021 10:56

Here are a few articles about a new bill going through, but really there isn't enough being spoken about it in the media.

Politics.co.uk: Anti-protest bill: Freedom dies in silence "The truly frightening thing was that they didn’t even argue for it. Over two days of debate and dozens of speeches, not one government minister actually defended the anti-protest powers in the new policing bill. Only one MP did."

The Economist: An illiberal bill to suppress protest in Britain

Guardian: 'Bill that curtails ability to protest in England and Wales passes second reading' "The DUP MP Gavin Robinson said: “The loose and lazy way this legislation is drafted would make a dictator blush. Protests will be noisy, protests will disrupt and no matter how offensive we may find the issue at their heart, the right to protest should be protected.”

Opinion: The Right to Protest is important in any credible democracy. Whilst I appreciate the current covid restrictions makes protest harder, in general, this should only be temporary until the pandemic slows down and we are back to some normality. A bill making potentially permanent changes to the Right to Protest makes me feel uneasy. Is that unreasonable?

OP posts:
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe · 19/03/2021 16:14

Thanks for the petition link, I've signed it.

I've always been quite law-abiding but, I think we're now at a crossroads as to whether we allow our politicians (whom we vote for) to take away our legal rights of protest.

Not in my name they don't.

angelofthenorth72 · 19/03/2021 16:16

[quote IsThisJustLife]Here's a link to the UK parliament petition on this: it's titled do not restrict our rights to peaceful protest

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/579012[/quote]
Thanks for this. Signed.

BonnieDundee · 19/03/2021 16:17

YABU. One, because there are several threads about this already, two, because people have the right not to care, and most importantly, all this does is protect innocent people from having their lives disrupted.

People will still be allowed to protest! They will just have to do it in a way that doesn't intimidate or otherwise inconvenience people who are not protesting and are just trying to go about their business. There's nothing wrong with that idea.

If it makes a protestor think twice before supergluing themselves to a train, good. If it makes organisers think through their plans more carefully to ensure they get their message across peacefully and safely, great. If it gives authorities the power to lock up people who feel their right to cause trouble and smash property outweighs the rights of others to feel safe, fantastic.

Frankly, if you can't persuade people with calm discussion then perhaps your argument is not as strong as you think it is.

All this bill does is tip the scales slightly, to make them a little less in favour of mob rule.

Hi Priti

MayYouLiveInInterestingTimes · 19/03/2021 16:19

As with everything in Britain it’s all about making life easy for the well-off ‘nice’ middle classes and ensuring they’re not disturbed by the mere sight of us rabble. Gardener tunnels and servants’ corridors, here we come. I’ll sign the petition to op.

MayYouLiveInInterestingTimes · 19/03/2021 16:23

@AllTheWayFromLondonDAMN

YANBU it’s terrifying. People were angrier about Corbyn and universal free broadband than they are about this.
And universal free broadband was actually a really good policy too, recognising that IT connection is now a fundamental base of national communications infrastructure. It has been supported by many high-level IT experts. People really are being led around by their noses.
TempsPerdu · 19/03/2021 16:26

Thanks for the petition link @IsThisJustLife - have signed. Also just donated to the Best for Britain crowdfunded to challenge the bill.

PerkingFaintly · 19/03/2021 16:33

Everyone worried he might roll in a communist dictatorship so voted for Boris.

To be more accurate, voted in a clownish frontman for Dominic Cummings, the proud Leninist.

BTW, Cummings was in front of a select committee this week asking for massive increase in funding "for science", free from all that dreadful bureaucracy nonsense.

By "science" he means his special Aria project which is exempt from freedom of information requests. And by bureaucracy he means regulations which hinder him hiring his mates and People Like Us; which hinder him handing out contracts to his mates' companies; and which hinder him sticking his hand in the cookie jar of our personal data.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56427280
www.digitalhealth.net/2020/12/palantir-awarded-23m-deal-to-continue-work-on-nhs-covid-19-data-store/

Dominic, there's a reason you keep finding regulation getting in the way of what you want to do: it's that those laws were written to protect us from people like you...

I know that sounds slightly off-topic for this thread, but actually I don't think it is. I don't believe that implementing a revolutionary's wetdreams was the reason Covid-lockdown was brought in and our data shared with Palantir. But I do think Cummings was first in a panting crowd of disaster-opportunists, sweeping in with ideas they had ready and waiting but which in normal times they'd have little hope of pushing through.

This bill is more classic disaster opportunism. TempsPerdue has it exactly right.

Maxnon · 19/03/2021 16:41

@skirk64 just read this line again... "Frankly, if you can't persuade people with calm discussion then perhaps your argument is not as strong as you think it is."

Do you know how naive that is?

Pankhurst tried to persuade with calm discussion first. Her argument for women having the right to vote was sound and reasonable (it's hard to argue against now that we have it and take it for granted). Her argument for women's right to vote was ignored and.or dismissed, most likely, due to sexism, arrogance and fear. Once the calm discussion route had been exhausted the approach shifted to a slogan: "Deeds not Words". Hence why the right to protest is so important.

Your comment assumes that arguments win or lose on the basis of their strengths and/or weaknesses alone. Foolishly forgetting that people, especially those in power, are driven by their own biases, self-interest and emotions.

OP posts:
Rockdown2020 · 19/03/2021 16:44

YANBU I was really concerned about this. I’ve shared the petition but ultimately it seems to have gone under the radar and is now passed. It’s awful.

sagaLoren · 19/03/2021 16:48

*"Frankly, if you can't persuade people with calm discussion then perhaps your argument is not as strong as you think it is."

Do you know how naive that is?*

It also assumes that democracy cannot also be a tyranny. What happens when marginalised groups want to fight for their rights? When they have no power at the ballot box because they're a minority? If it wasn't for people coming out and protesting then we'd still see black people sitting at the back of the bus, we'd see gay people imprisoned, we'd see women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

PersimmonTree · 19/03/2021 16:59

@Lorieandrews

So. If we protested the bill

By standing completely silent. In a cube. Two metres apart from each other. Holding signs. Not in anyone’s way

Could that happen? Could you still be arrested?

Of course it could!! If you're holding a placard that somebody thinks is distressing, the police can remove you.

The wording is, if the protest “may result in serious disruption to the activities of an organisation” or could cause “serious unease, alarm or distress” to a passer-by.

See the relevant page 56, Part 3 of the Bill here:
publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-01/0268/200268.pdf

According to the Guardian "Conservative party’s co-chair Amanda Milling claiming that voting against the bill would block “tough new laws to keep people safe, including many vital measures to protect women from violent criminals” and “tougher sentences for child murderers and sex offenders”. She can fuck off as well.

Dustyboots · 19/03/2021 17:01

@skirk64 seems to have disappeared.

I am always curious as to who these posters, identical to government mouthpieces, actually are ...

AllisoninWunderland · 19/03/2021 17:35

Signed the petition.

YANBU.

Goldieloxx · 19/03/2021 17:42

The direction this country is moving in is frightening, it's not unnoticed but the majority seemingly don't care, but then they voted for Brexit and the Tories

oatmilk4breakfast · 19/03/2021 17:44

Of course! I wrote to my MP. This is what I wrote and shared with others asking them to do the same:

“Thank you for receiving this email - I wanted to raise my concern with you about the potential attack on civil liberties that aspects of this Bill represent, hopefully inadvertently. www.local.gov.uk/parliament/briefings-and-responses/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-house-commons-second

On reading the Government's fact sheets about the Bill I am struck by how driven the stuff on policing protests is driven by the frustrations encountered by the police in their efforts to deal with the civil disobedience campaign of Extinction Rebellion.

Leaving aside all the rights and wrongs of that campaign, my concern is this: the Bill needs much more careful thought and debate than it will receive over the next two days. It is scary to me that a Bill with such profound consequences for legitimate protest in this country is being driven by actions that are already illegal (civil disobedience is by definition overstepping the law). Much of the wording seems very loose, open to interpretation and would have a chilling effect on law abiding people with a right to protest - this is one of the bedrocks of our democracy and a free society.

Just two examples that seem particularly open to abuse by ministers and police:

  • Broaden the range of circumstances in which police may impose conditions on a protest..."The Home Secretary will have the power, through secondary legislation, to define and give examples of “serious disruption to the life of the community” and “serious disruption to the activities of an organisation which are carried out in the vicinity of the procession/assembly/one-person protest”.
  • Amend the offence relating to the breaching of conditions...."This measure will close a loophole which some protesters exploit. Some will cover their ears and tear up written conditions handed to them by the police so that they are likely to evade conviction for breaching conditions on a protest as the prosecution have to prove that the person “knowingly fails to comply with a condition imposed”. The Bill will change the threshold for the offence so that it is committed where a person “knows or ought to have known” that the condition has been imposed."

This Bill seems to increase the power of the Home Secretary and the Police to decide who is allowed to protest and who is not, to decide which protests to allow, and which protests not - so they might allow the tame, quiet, ineffective ones, but not the untamed, loud and potentially effective ones. Because whatever you think about XR's civil disobedience, and the movement Black Lives Matter, there is no doubt that there are many reasons why those groups would face prejudice and discrimination before they even got off the ground.

What about young people and their Fridays for Futures marches? Will they be 'allowed'? Whose voices will we hear? Only those backed by money and influence? The vast vast majority of people involved in all the protest movements I've listed are not criminals. They are doctors, lawyers, scientists, teachers, marketing professionals, former police men and women, mums, school children, dads, grandparents, people with a conscience and a love for this country and our world, and who want to live freely and peacefully in it.

We run the risk here of criminalising ordinary, law abiding citizens with sentences more appropriate to violent crimes for being part of a protest that gets away from itself or is deemed to be too loud? And where does it stop? As a result of the Clapham Common vigils - peaceful until police started kettling women - will we find that all gatherings of women will be deemed too threatening and will not be granted permission? This feels like standing at a waterslide, if we lose our footing here, we're going on a long, slippery downward spiral.

I'm sure there are many potential success stories in the Bill - I'd heard of it previously in the context of the NSPCC's work to ensure sports coaches are treated the same as other authority figures in cases of sexual abuse and that is good. But this Bill with all its flaws as well as successes cannot be rushed through.

The police and the people proposing the Bill say it's not 1986, that these are 'very very different times'. Yes, they are right - it is not 1986. At that time, the vast majority of people and the public (though not responsible corporations and Governments) were unaware of the catastrophic 'disruption to the life of the community' that was coming down the track from increased global heating caused by our abuse of fossil fuels and the global havoc that could be wreaked by zoonotic diseases caused by ecological destruction.

These are extraordinarily challenging times. We all have to stand up for a free society - for all - even the people we disagree with, and not sleepwalk our way into a situation where all our civil rights have been eroded to the point that protest is meaningless. No one should feel this does not apply to them. If ordinary citizens feel too afraid of the police, and separately the law, to go into the streets and flag up injustice, inaction, inequality and potentially impending disaster, then this will no longer be the free country that I thought I was raising my son in.

I appreciate how busy you are and how hard you work for your constituents, but I look forward to hearing from you and will be following the debate over the next two days.”

HopelessBlue192 · 19/03/2021 17:46

Yanbu.
And combine that with the curtailing of judicial review?
Freaking terrifying.

52andblue · 19/03/2021 17:48

@Thelnebriati

Pity they didn't push back against the Spycops bill as well. Its now legal for State agents to recruit children and commit crimes.
Yes, this was pretty terrifying too, I agree.

@LunaHeather I am sorry you feel you need to buy a passport not for travel purposes but to prove you were born here. I can understand why though. My kids both have Autism. I do worry about my son in particular if he is picked up by the Police. After Sarah Everard I worry about my daughter too. I know the person involved was a very rare case but after my own experiences and those of working with young women who were reporting CSA and what they went through, and seeing some of the Police responses when I worked for Women's Aid, I think there is a big problem. Patel is awful and cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions. And even if she wasn't what about these huge powers simply being transferred to the next Home Secretary ?

oatmilk4breakfast · 19/03/2021 17:53

We need to keep pushing. There are lots of opportunities for amendments. That was only Second Reading. We need to send protests to Starmer and other opposition leaders and support the civil liberties groups in making sure this reaches people who don’t think it’s their problem. Anyone have anyway of reaching influencers / celebrities? I don’t use social media so can’t. The only reason this went to the top of t news cycle last week was because of the women’s protest for Sarah Everard. We need to try and keep it high in public consciousness. It’s not over til it’s over.

bravotango · 19/03/2021 17:56

Frankly, if you can't persuade people with calm discussion then perhaps your argument is not as strong as you think it is.

Christ alive

ConquestEmpireHungerPlague · 19/03/2021 18:07

Here's some bedtime reading: uk.bookshop.org/books/how-to-lose-a-country-the-7-steps-from-democracy-to-dictatorship/9780008294045.

oatmilk4breakfast · 19/03/2021 18:22

I’ve read that one. Harder to know how to actually take steps to NOT lose a democracy. Writing to my MP is what I’ve got so far. What else can we do? I’ll write and talk to everyone I know about it and I’ll go and stand outside Parliament. Other thoughts?

dividedwefall · 19/03/2021 18:26

The only way to avoid the descent into autocracy is if everyone understands it is happening and rejects it. Sadly there are far too many people who just don't believe this is happening in the UK, that everything that is happening is to keep them safe. It will be too late when they realise what we have lost.

COVID is the gift that keeps on giving when it comes to keeping people quiet whilst they do things we would have never allowed otherwise.

PersimmonTree · 19/03/2021 18:51

@oatmilk4breakfast

I’ve read that one. Harder to know how to actually take steps to NOT lose a democracy. Writing to my MP is what I’ve got so far. What else can we do? I’ll write and talk to everyone I know about it and I’ll go and stand outside Parliament. Other thoughts?
A list of active pressure groups and civil liberties associations would be good. Anyone got any good ones?
tormentil · 19/03/2021 19:07

@dividedwefall

The only way to avoid the descent into autocracy is if everyone understands it is happening and rejects it. Sadly there are far too many people who just don't believe this is happening in the UK, that everything that is happening is to keep them safe. It will be too late when they realise what we have lost.

COVID is the gift that keeps on giving when it comes to keeping people quiet whilst they do things we would have never allowed otherwise.

I shared this earlier - helps to see the bigger picture. There are three videos, this is the first.
Budsey · 19/03/2021 19:09

isthisjustlife:
thank you for the guardian report and the petition link I have read and signed both respectively
Ms Patel is modelling herself on Ms Thatcher !! you know I don't know why these people revere her so much we are still rueing the day when Thatcher sold off the council houses and kept the monies as opposed to reinvesting in the building of more houses!! that's just one incidence of her awful reign in politics ! and the protests that abounded when she was in power god awful woman !.....
Bet the police are fuming ,that they have been used to power up Ms Patel ! no soul behind those eyes !