Disgusted By Dentists Behaviour!!!

[Windchangeface]

We moved home week before the pandemic and then non of the dentists were taking on patients.

This made me very nervous, I kept an eye out to jump as soon as they opened up.

Well...as of a few weeks ago 3/5 practises within a 15 mile radius of us put up notices on their websites ‘taking on new patients’ great I rang to register me, DH and small DS. But oh no, they aren’t taking on any NHS patients only private or Denplan! (Would cost us a minimum of £50 per month and I’m currently pregnant so should be free anyway). The receptionists at all 3 massively tried to sell me Denplan and actually made me feel like a total sponge for asking about NHS.

‘Most families prefer Denplan’ erm sorry Shannon but I highly doubt ‘most’ families prefer to spend £50+ per month on something that should be £20 a visit for them and free for their kids!

One of the receptionists even told me (in a very snooty tone) ‘no we aren’t taking NHS patients we’ve got enough of those) another stated ‘we’ve met our quota for NHS so are only taking paying patients’.

Given DH is a Dr who spends all day looking after hospital patients free of charge I’m at a loss to understand why dentists feel they’re above the NHS.

Horrible, elitist attitude excluding people who can’t afford to pay from adequate healthcare and forcing those who can to pay high premiums they shouldn’t have to!

You are a part of a doctor’s family so you must understand that dentists are not paid well unless they take on private clients. Please pay fairly for their service and do not expect to have nice things for free.

You still haven’t acknowledged that this is a system problem and you’ve been totally unreasonable to be unkind about the dentist/staff.

Your dentists behaviour here is no more a problem than your husband’s behaviour when he is unable to provide care at a level he’d like to because the system doesn’t have the structure & capacity to do so.

Let’s hope his patients direct their criticism to the right people instead of him.

@SchadenfreudePersonified you said I agree that dentistry should come under the NHS umbrella (and it used to), but it doesn't and we have to just suck it up, I'm afraid. I’m confused - it DOES come under the NHS umbrella? That’s why I have an NHS dentist, my child has one and my partner has one? The OP is not asking for charity she is asking to access a service that is meant to be available to all. It really worries me that there will be creep in other services both NHS, social and education if this idea that you should be grateful for anything you are given becomes more prevalent.

Op I bet a junior doctor earns more than a single mother on benefits. I did sympathise when reading your post but you lost me there at the end. My Dh is not dr but we went private because i simply couldn't find an nhs dentist i was happy with.

It’s not relevant what OP’s husband does for a living. Although she’s being dramatic she’s not some kind of cheeky fucker for expecting NHS dental care... it should be available to everyone. People are being bitter here for no reason.

It’s a nasty shock when you find out that a service that should be available on the NHS has been privatised by stealth. I work in the NHS and I think there’s a lot which has gone that way even beyond the usual examples.

It’s not relevant what OP’s husband does for a living.

Perhaps she shouldn't shoehorn it into every post then.

We've been with an NHS dentist for years, but I found out I had about £800 of work to get done which was supposed to start in March 2020. Obviously due to lockdown it was postponed. My dentist told me the only way to get the work done was to upgrade to private, and he recommended Denplan. I did so because I couldn't wait any longer, and I finally got my appointments in December 2020 and January 2021.

DH is still NHS and although he needs to see the dentist due to some problems he's been having, there are no NHS appointments coming up for months yet. So unless he can wait, he'll also have to go private too. It's annoying because it's the same dentist, but the only way to see him is to pay!

@Iwantamarshmallowman

Op I bet a junior doctor earns more than a single mother on benefits. I did sympathise when reading your post but you lost me there at the end. My Dh is not dr but we went private because i simply couldn't find an nhs dentist i was happy with.

A junior doctor starts on £28k for a 48hr week.

But it’s actually irrelevant - just like a single mother on benefits, the OP (who is pregnant) and her children are entitled to access NHS dentistry.

I am shock at some of the responses on here. How very dare you expect to benefit from a health service that you pay in to, there is no choice to opt out of and you are entitled to use! The system is wrong not you. It does make me cross when people try to make out that the NHS is a charitable favour not a funded body funded by YOU. Yes it can’t ‘pay for everything’ but it is meant to include dentistry. If it can’t then it shouldn’t say it can and take money for doing so. It should adhere to its principles

I agree one hundred percent, @Zolrets

Given that your husband is a doctor, @Windchangeface , and you have a p/t job, you will be paying huge amounts into the system (in addition to your husband providing medical treatment for other people for free). You bloody well ought to get something back out of it.

Rather than privatising dentistry, it would be better to root out the people who clog up A&E unnecessarily. They could start by fining people who choose to get drunk and use ambulances as taxis.

The dentistry thing makes me really, really cross.

Yes you are entitled to a service.
No you should not be “disgusted” at your dentist’s behaviour.

You didn’t like the way they phrased the fact they can’t take on any more patients. What can they do? Work more hours in the day to treat more patients? Would you expect your partner to do that as a GP?
Have a word with yourself.

A lot of complaining here. Now what are folk going to do ?

This is the general direction all NHS services are headed for.

Actually, those who think that wanting NHS dentistry is "wanting nice things for free" should start paying for their own medical treatment. Seeing a dentist isn't a nice day out, FFS.

They can pay the OP's husband to treat their broken arms, and the OP will then be able to pay more easily for the broken tooth that she might well end up with in the future, given that pregnancy does odd things to your teeth, which is why all pregnant women qualify for NHS dentistry.

What's not to like?

But it's not just your dentist's "behaviour", op. Most dentists aren't taking on more NHS patients right now, in fact it's been this way for years.
Lots of people who'd qualify for NHS dentistry have had to go private.

[quote Zolrets]@Windchangeface and for all those saying you can afford private - that is irrelevant. You could be the UK version of Bill Gates. If you pay your tax you should receive the service or as much of a service as the next person. This is the principle of a public funded service. It is not a charity.[/quote]
Exactly. If higher earners have no expectation of getting anything back for their tax/NI payments, they are likely to put a lot of time, effort and money (professional fees to accountants etc) into avoiding paying tax. Decades ago I was a tax accountant and it amazed how hard some companies and individuals would work to get out of paying tax. If you looked at what they were paying their advisers, in some cases it would have been cheaper to just pay the tax.

Same applies when tax rates are extremely high. Once they drop to what people consider a reasonable level, they're far more likely to just pay the tax.

Universal child benefit was often slagged off as something many families didn't need. Maybe not, but a means-tested system is far more expensive to administer, and you end up with some people who really need that money not claiming it out of pride or because of literacy issues.

We're sliding backwards to a society where the rich resent paying for the less rich. I find this very sad. Any of us could find ourselves in difficulties at any time, for all sorts of reasons. The welfare state was designed to give all of us confidence that there's a safety net there for us when we need it. We all pay for the safety net. We won't all need it, but we might.

THE NHS COMISSIONS LESS DENTISTRY THAN IS NEEDED FOR HALF THE POPULATION. YOU DO THE MATH

My uncle is a dentist and he now sees private patients only. The funding he was receiving for NHS patients was not sufficient to run the surgery to a good standard, nor could he provide the treatments needed.

@HeyDemonsItsYaGirl

It’s not relevant what OP’s husband does for a living.

Perhaps she shouldn't shoehorn it into every post then.

Obviously. It’s just not relevant though.

I suspect the husband would be less surprised than OP to find out that NHS dental care has been rationed out of reach.

As a dentist do you know what really pisses me off? Medics who refuse to understand the NHS dentistry system. I understand most people won't, but how can you work in the NHS, insist on free NHS dental care but have no knowledge of the NHS system?

Dentists are not salaried for their work, they are self employed. The practices - thats the building, equipment, bills, furniture are not paid for by the NHS. The NHS will pay a set fee per unit of work thats it.

The government contracts a practice x amount of NHS work per year, you won't get paid if you do anymore than that. So not only will you be working for free, the practice will not be getting any money to pay for upkeep, staff salaries etc. The practice would go bust.

Do you know what would reduce NHS waiting times? If surgeons came into work for free on the weekends, and paid the theatre staff out of their earnings to do this. Now I do know lots of junior doctors do a lot of extra work, as do most dentists but you can't expect dentists to see patients for free when the practice will be impacted by this, you cannot run a practice if you aren't getting money in. You can't buy new equipment if you aren't getting money, you can't do further training if you aren't getting money. All of this would impact on the patients.

Actually lots of practices do take on NHS patients, every practice I have worked for has taken on NHS patients, my friends have taken on NHS patients. I appreciate that the pandemic has impacted this, but its simply not true that nowhere has taken on NHS patients for years.

You are welcome to lobby the government for free dental care, or NHS dental care for all. You would probably have to double the NHS budget at a minimum, NHS dental care is currently subsidised by private work, but most dentists I know would be more than happy to be salaried for their work as in the NHS. Especially if the government pays the practice upkeep, equipment costs, staff salaries etc. That would take a lot of stress away

For those making comments about an NHS junior doctor. Do you actually know what the salary is of an NHS dentist? - It's a damn sight more than a junior doctor. Up to £86,000 and up £102,000 consultant grade.

The nhs dentists that the vast majority of the public see aren’t salaried community dentists but primary care dentists who are basically self-employed and contract their time to the NHS. So that figure is totally misleading. It costs DH about 8k in indemnity/ARF and CQC fees before he even steps in the surgery to see a patient. Then he pays all the costs of running what is essentially a mini hospital and are very considerable in terms of staff and equipment - nurses/receptionists etc (eg most dental stuff is single use and has to be bought for each patient) before he makes any profit. He had done nearly zero private work since last March and dedicated himself to doing nhs dentistry only, working much more slowly and seeing far fewer patients as required by the new standard operating procedures which have also cost a fortune to implement - ventilation/screens etc. Had to take a loan out for that. What is paid for nhs dental contracts is so pathetic that many corporates have just handed nhs contracts back as they can’t make them work even on a large scale. Most associates (dentists who don’t own a practice p) haven’t had an increase in the UDA rate for the last 10 years as the principal can’t pass it on as they need the money to cover increasing costs of providing dentistry.

Threads like this are the reason we are emigrating. NHS dentistry is a shit show and has been for years but instead of looking at the system and critiquing that on the basis of evidence and writing to your MP, posters would rather blame the dentist based upon what a receptionist has allegedly said. Hmm. Ok. Get used to not being able to see an NHS dentist as the crisis is going to get worse and worse - in 10 years time you maybe lucky to see a therapist who will be trained to do basic extractions and dentures in some kind of virgin healthcare hub 70 miles from your home. Anything more complex will only be offered to stable patients with good oral hygiene who embrace preventative dentistry - at current standards, that will rule out about 70 percent of the population. The government have done a great job of blaming “greedy” dentists for this (although I don’t know of any greedy person who would carry on working in a system with ever decreasing returns where they earn less than they did 10 years ago.). This means that the gullible public are nicely distracted from turning their ire on who had caused this mess - successive Governments - and large numbers of dentists and corporates just walk away from providing nhs dentistry which many only carry on doing because they believe in the nhs system concept but that is becoming an ideological luxury

We have an NHS which allegedly covers dental care, so YANBU, you should be able to access NHS dental care. I also work in the NHS (not a doctor) in the labs, which are also being privatised by stealth.

We now do work for private hospitals which our management have chosen to tell them that we'll do ahead of the NHS work. This is an NHS lab, in an NHS hospital, staffed by people trained and paid by the NHS. When resources are poor and staffing levels are already low, it impacts the quality of service provision for everyone who can't afford private care.

We deserve more, but taxes need to rise to pay for better provision, that's really all there is to it. It doesn't make any sense for people to pay low taxes and expect a fully funded NHS. You either pay low taxes and pay extra on top for healthcare if you can afford it (the US model) or pay high taxes and have a fully working health service (as they do in eg Sweden).

We all know how inequitable the US model is, let's not aim for that.

Here is the exact information about salaried nhs dentist (the minority community or hospital generally) and it is pretty much based on the same pay scale as doctors.

“Most dental practice dentists are self employed.

Dentists in training

Newly qualified dentists who want to work in the NHS must undertake dental foundation training for one year, for which the annual 2020/21 salary is £32,796. This allowance is set through the General Dental Services Statement of Financial Entitlements Directions issued annually by the Department of Health.

Most dental practice dentists are self employed

After completing their dental foundation training, dentists can either choose to work in a dental practice or enter dental core training.

Dental core trainees earn a basic salary between £38,693 and £49,036. In addition, they are paid for any hours over 40 per week that they work. If they are required to work at night, at the weekend, or on-call, they will receive a 37% enhancement for working nights, a weekend allowance for working at the weekend, and an availability allowance if they are required to be available on-call. They may additionally be paid other pay premia, for example if they enter dental specialty training and qualify for an oral and maxillofacial flexible pay premia.

Salaried dentists

Salaried dentists employed by the NHS, working mainly with community dental services, earn a basic salary of between £40,629 and £86,900.

Consultants

Consultants in dental specialties are paid on the same scales as other hospital consultants and from 1st April 2019, earn a basic salary of between £79,860 and £107,668 per year dependent on years of seniority in the consultant grade. Local and National Clinical Excellence Awards may be awarded subject to meeting the necessary criteria.”

YANBU

I have found Denplan to be expensive. I did not get any better service from my dentist than when he was NHS as I could not get an appt every six months and he was cancelling the half term ones near the time so he could go on holiday (forward planning???) so sometimes it was getting on for a year. There was nowhere else to go as he was one of the last to go private in my area.

The direct debit went up every year with no way out, so when it got to £25 a month (ie £300/year) for one and a half checkups, I found a nice private one that had just opened and charged up front.

A foundation dentist is paid 30k a year, this is the equivalent of a junior doctor.

An NHS consultant working in a hospital will be paid NHS consultant rates, as all NHS consultants are.

Dentists in primary care are not salaried past their foundation year.

• If it's just dentures that your mum needs, and not actual dental treatment, then she could try using a Dental Technician instead. They are the people who make dentures. To give you an idea of price, my mum was fitted for an upper denture last week, three teeth on a plate, less than £200. If she'd seen an NHS dentist she'd be paying £282 for the same thing. She went direct to the technician's premises so didn't have to visit a dental surgery, it was very calm and quiet. The dentures take about a week to make up.*

Dentures take three or four appointments to take various impressions and establish proper fit. Sounds like this technician has rushed things into one visit and your mum will have a poor fitting denture.

I have incredibly poor dental health due to a condition that meant my teeth ground down to powder and I now have no teeth in my early 40s, wearing full dentures. Thankfully, due to exacerbating anxiety issues I'm seen by the NHS community dentist, referrals are difficult (criteria) and kept quiet and there's normally a long wait (mine was around two and a half years).

@Alfaix

Please educate yourself on how NHS dentistry works. Dentists with an NHS contract (not all have one and they haven’t been giving out new ones or much extra funding in recent years) have a set amount of funding to do a set amount of work. Once that funding is used you don’t get more until the next financial year. They don’t work for nothing so patients have to pay privately instead.

This. As a junior doctor, your DH never has to worry about the funding of the care he provides, OP. He gets paid, come what may.

Dentists are not so lucky. If you are a partner in a dental practice, you will be personally funding any NHS patients treated in excess of your contracted amount from the NHS. The NHS won't pay, so it comes out of your own pocket.

You sound really sanctimonious, OP - and I say that as a doctor myself. Would your DH be happy to see NHS patients if he was doing it for free, and if he had to pay for all the staff, equipment and drug costs of treatment out of his own salary? I'm guessing not.

Maybe before announcing how disgusted you are, you could have taken 5 minutes to research NHS funding of dentistry? But I guess it's just easier to slag other people off from a position of ignorance?