WIBU to just let DS fail?

[miimblemomble]

DS is 13, going on 14. I'm finding the teenage years hard going.

His school marks have been borderline for a while. As far as I can see he just doesn't want to put in the effort. He is one of the youngest in his year, and he just doesn't have the maturity to see that he needs to work hard to get good marks. He coasted through primary and the first couple of years of secondary, getting by on being 'clever enough' and doing the minimum. We aren't in the UK, and this year and next are a big step up in the level of work required in this curriculum.

DH and I are doing a lot to support him. We make sure he does his homework, that he's got a comfortable place to study, are on hand to help him with most subjects (DH is a teacher and spends time at the weekend (when he has work to do) basically tutoring DS). We've got him a tutor for the one subject that we can't help him with. But it's not enough, he still constantly tries to cut corners, to get it "done" and get back to gaming / meeting friends / whatever. When he gets a bad mark, he is genuinely disappointed - but he also blames everyone but himself, he insists that he did study (which he did, but clearly not effectively or enough), etc. Then he moves on - a little bit more convinced that he's just not up to it - when I know he would be if he just put the effort in.

I have no experience in this. I was a typical swotty, eager to please, girl who worked hard and got 10/10 in everything. I didn't even question whether or not to put the effort in. I don't know how to motivate him.

DH is getting a bit fed up and starting to say maybe we should just let him fail, and maybe that would bump him into the real world? I'm - frankly - terrified to do this. If he flunks out at this stage, these low marks will follow him through his school years. And it feels like throwing him in the deep end to force him to grow up.

How involved are you in your children's school work / marks? Do you accept low marks and let them deal with it? Or do you actively try to get them to improve (in whatever way)?

YABU - he will never learn to take responsibility if you don't let him fail
YANBU - he's young, he needs you to keep supporting him, he's too young to be set up to fail as a 'life lesson'

I have a 13 year old and am coming to the same conclusion myself, I think its better they learn now when it doesnt matter than in a few years when it really does! As the work load gets more in the run up to exams it's going to be up to them. It's so so hard though, I'm struggling with letting go too!

I have a 16 great old boy. We have not helped him with his school work since he moved up to year 7. He has passed or failed on his own merits.

How are you helping your son by hot housing him, is all the extra work you are putting into him helping? Is he learning how to study on his own or is he learning that he doesn't really need to work that hard because mum & dad will bail him out?

What we have done for our son is spoken to his teachers in the area he is struggling to see what they can suggest will help him improve. We have regular times for him to do any homework and also regular down times. We have spoken to him about why his education is important, but ultimately we cannot do that work for him, he has to do it himself. Finally we told him that even if he failed all his exams he could always resit them until he actually got an acceptable pass in maths and English. To be honest he doesn't love studying and the thought of having to resit any more exams was enough to make sure that he tried hard the first time round!

I'm with your husband on this one, let your son find his own level, let him fail, be there to pick him up and dust him down and start again. Let your son be himself. If it helps any we were told that a lot of boys drift along doing ok but not great until about 6 months before their final exams, it suddenly hits them and they work like demons and pull it out of the bag! I have to say that we definitely saw a constant and steady improvement in my ds in the run up to his gcse's, but it was all his own doing.

I was a bright enough coaster.
I didn't get the tutoring type of help you are doing but my parents definitely valued education and I had a desk and space to do homework/study from the first year of secondary school.
I failed for the first time in University, when last minute cramming only works if the last minute is weeks instead of hours!
It was not good and obviously had a much more detrimental effect on my life, (had to repeat a year) then failing school exams in my early teens would have.
I think you should continue to emphasise the importance of education but have a direct conversation where you ask if he wants the tutoring from your DH or anyone else.
If he does then you expect him to work at it, if not you'll let him off.
But say you are always ready to help if he changes his mind.
I would also separately to this have conversations around the practical realities of life if you don't already.
My Dad made it very clear to us from the start of secondary that tertiary education was the end goal, not our final school exams.
He didn't try to influence what we studied and would have been happy with a trade apprenticeship.
But just straight from school into work wasn't happening.
This was because in his work he worked with women who had left school young, worked all their lives and were being left with little or no pensions to retire on.
He spoke about the unfairness of this often at home and how he didn't want us to experience the same plight.
If money is not talked about at home and their is no huge disparity between their lifestyle and their peers.
Teenagers can have no clue of the practical realities of paying for housing, bills, life and the connection between their application in school and the chance they will be as comfortable as their parents in adulthood.
I'm not saying money is the key to success, but options are and education is the key to options.

If getting back to doing game if etc is an issue then an that during the school week.
No gaming Mon -Thursday and then only after doing all the homework on Friday.

@Harpydragon

I think if we were in the UK I'd be a bit more relaxed. We're in France. No resits here. Next year, the marks that DS gets will determine whether he is able to follow an academic or vocational pathway in lycée. And there's no chance to redo anything if he makes an arse of it - he gets one chance. He's clever enough - all his teachers agree on that. But letting him fail has real consequences here.

@M0rT

My Dad made it very clear to us from the start of secondary that tertiary education was the end goal, not our final school exams

How do that work if it's the final school exams that determine whether or not you get into the tertiary education?

He didn't try to influence what we studied and would have been happy with a trade apprenticeship

This is partly what I'm struggling with TBH. I had it drummed into me that university / profession was the only option. I always assumed that it would be the same for my children, that it would just kind of happen., and I'm having to change what turn out to be very deeply buried prejudices about my children following a non-academic path. I've turned into my mother - quel horreur! I feel very topsy turvy about this.

Normally I'd say let him see the consequences of his actions but If he really only gets one chance in the French system then I couldn't let him flounder and would keep doing as you're doing g until the exams. I have the same prejudices as you and if my child was capable (as you say he is and his teachers think so) then I would be clear to him that university is the only goal and he needs to work harder. Assuming he doesn't have other plans - does he have any ideas what he wants to do in the future?

I can definitely see how your frustrations have got you to this point. I remember my mum spent years worrying about my brothers coasting and minimal efforts. Frustrating as it is I would keep chivvying - no gaming till Friday nights, maybe more conversations about his career/further study goals to remind him he needs to do some work. A bit of bribery if necessary. If he is bright enough to pass it would be good to get him through the first time and save future regrets. Good luck op, as a teacher this is far from uncommon in the teenagers.

What, seems to, have worked with ds is over the years drip feeding and always emphasising to him it isn't the clever who do best at school it is the grafters, how exam results reflecting your true ability level when you do your best will give you more options and half hearted attempts will close some doors, over the years there has been anecdotes to back this up. A teacher he likes saying similar, a friend who did really well in the first couple of years of secondary and who ds thinks is much smarter than him has had some poor class test results and is now restricted with his subject options for next year.

This has stuck with him, we actively supported him through his first year of exams, teaching him how to study and when he did well emphasised it was all down to his hard work and study skills not intelligence. This year we are still supporting him when he needs it but he is much more independent and knows what he needs to do.

Would it be terrible if he went down the vocational route?

Your ds sounds like every other boy his age really. I think you should ask if he's done his home work, be on hand to help him with questions and tutoring, but only if he wants it.

If he is having tutoring at the weekend and as much parental involvement as you describe but still gets low marks, I would question whether an academic route is really right for him?

@miimblemomble I don't know much about the French and German systems but I have the impression that they are very prescriptive quite young. I can understand the worry there, I went to uni at 17 and still changed my career path in my twenties.
How people who can't pick a favourite food are expected to know what they want for their adulthood is beyond me!
I suppose what I meant was that we were talked to often about what we would study, if we would like an apprenticeship or did we want university.
The different colleges and their plus and minus points where often brought up in conversation.
If I expressed an interest in a type of career they would try to find someone they knew who did it to talk to me about what it would entail.
It was also made clear that financial support from parents would last as long as education did.
So we could choose to stay in our part time jobs and do full time hours when we finished second level. But we would be expected to pay board and there would be no more travel or clothes costs forthcoming. This would have left us with less money than the part time wages we could keep to ourselves. Definitely had an impact on all of us keeping studying!
In reality they are still very supportive and I'm 40 now, my Mam offered to pay for something in my house the other day!
I think you should inform yourself with your DS about career options where you live.
You are worried because uni and professional roles is what you know, and I'm guessing you didn't go through the French education system yourself? So of course you want your children to follow a path you are familiar with and that has worked for you.
I know France is different and maybe trade apprenticeships are very difficult to get.
But it can't be that different in that work for plumbers is as well paid and abundant as work from most professions these days.
If you knew there were good non-academic options available to your son you might be more relaxed about his school exams.
And in researching he might decide that actually he doesn't want to do a physical job and he had better put some work in so he can stay on the academic track.
I don't have DC but I do understand that it must be so hard when you know the pitfalls not to try your hardest to keep them from stumbling.

Not to over generalise but boys often cop on to these things later. I am in lreland and often it's at 17 they see their Leaving Cert looming and put in a mad spurt for the end line. If he was here l would say let him fail.
But hearing about his system l would continue with your dh helping him as he will mature sometime and be able to take advantage of his opportunities. I wouldn't hound him. Just decide its immaturity and be happy to help. My ds was like that and l just came alongside him. Did brilliantly at 17 and onwards through university but was a disaster at 13. It was worth the effort for me and funnily enough it made us very close as he wasn't afraid to ask for help going forward. I am a teacher too.
He cannot see the distant picture. He is living for now. So don't nag him as he will resist. If possible get him working at the kitchen table , not his room as he will be only dreaming. Keep all gaming for weekends. Change your own thoughts towards it and your DHS and see it as something you are doing for him for his future. Don't let it become a big part of your relationship with him. Just do it without much talk .
I practically guarantee you he will change...eventually and your efforts will have paid off.

always emphasising to him it isn't the clever who do best at school it is the grafters,

This is such an important point - thank you for articulating it.

Honestly.... Let him do his own thing. My SS lived with us and we tried really hard to steady his ship and provide the support he needed so he didnt fail. He found the boundaries too stringent and decided he would rather live with his mother.
His mother just let him be and as we suspected ... He perforned miserably. He has spent the last two years after school bumbling from pillar to post not being able to find a job or a course that would allow him entrance given his poor school results.
In the end the chickens have come home to roost and he is repeating his last year of school in an attempt to get better results that will open more doors for him.
The result had he stayed with us with all the support would probably have been the same ie a better school result in the end, but at least this way he has learnt the lesson the hard way and has come to the conclusion on his own through trials and tribulation. It would have been nice to have saved him the pain of lost years but he would never have listened to our advice.
His lesson learnt is that somehow there is never enough time to do things right the first time but plenty of time to do it over... Go figure.
Let him fail and then provide the support for him to try again. Its a hard lesson to learn but perhaps it will serve in better in other areas of life in the future to understand that hard work pays off and slacking doesnt really get you anywhere.

Iv only just started with teen DC. But here's what I'm doing. He does the work, I check it and make him re do it if not up to standard I know he can do. Few times of this and ds is starting to realise it's easier and quicker to put a bit of effort in first time round as no gaming until completed. I do quick tests once a week per subject if he has a test again no gaming if he hasnt put the effort in. Its starting to sink in that he has to work

he is repeating his last year of school in an attempt to get better results that will open more doors for him.

As I said, no resits and no repeating a year to get better marks. Sometimes students get moved back a year if they are academically unable to cope (not ds -we’ve checked) or punted from the school if they don’t think they’ll make the grade.

if he is having tutoring at the weekend and as much parental involvement as you describe but still gets low marks, I would question whether an academic route is really right for him?

Hard to say. dH is a teacher - he’s pretty clear that DS has the ability, lacks the commitment / maturity. His teachers say the same. The tutoring is for German: neither DH nor I speak it, his teacher was absent for 6 weeks with Covid. No replacement in all that time. Now he’s back he’s cracking the whip to catch them up - the whole class is struggling to keep up. This is a teacher who prides himself on setting a hard pace 🙄 in normal circumstances so it’s even harder now.

By repeating I mean at another institution... obviously our scenarios are different because my SS left his last year of school with poor results so has had to pick up school subjects two years after he left school at a bridging institution. If he had failed in his middle years I’m not sure what the school would have done to be honest?

I don't have loads of advice but I hugely sympathise. My DH and I pay around £200 a month for tutoring in maths as our DS age 13, a subject he has long struggled with. Otherwise he is doing fine academically, with high marks in subjects he enjoys. He is clever but lazy, very lazy. What riles me is my son's attitude to the tutoring, he complains literally every week when the next session rolls by. He grumbles and goes on and on: 'maths isn't important anyway, I don't want a job that needs maths' or 'the tutoring isn't helping at maths, in fact it's making me worse'. Both these things are provably untrue and he is a clever boy and I know he doesn't even believe them himself. Many kids out there are ambitious and would love their parents to fork out substantial amounts for one-to-one tutoring, and to be as engaged and encouraging as we are with DS . . . . but DS acts like we're torturing him. It feels a little spoilt to me. But I think that's the teenage brain, they don't get short term pain for long term gain. We did let him get rid of the maths tutor, for a year, and in that year he slipped back to well below average and put in the lowest set in school which did disappoint him and embarrass him as most of his friends are high performers. Since starting maths tutoring again he has been moved up a set. So we let him 'fail', he hated it, but then he still complains when we swooped in and insisted on maths tutoring again.

I'd make a longer goal i.e term.

Tell him each term he is expected to reach X grade or score average and of he does then he gets a reward and keeps his privileges. If he doesn't make it (due to a lack of effort) then he loses a provilege for a whole term and has the opportunity to earn it back (such as the Xbox taken away).

@miimblemomble
I could have written you op. Also not in the uk and at 13/14 the kids start choosing apprenticeships or further school. He has no chance at the moment to go through to further school. I have no issue with the vocational route and think for him it will be a good idea but with his grades he is seriously limiting his choices of what he will be able to do. It was also drummed into me that university was the only option.
I've done everything I can to help, but he resists help and won't even accept a tutor. I've decided to stay open to help him but going to take a deep breath and let him fail.
We'll have to help him pick up the pieces
I also just don't think that he will be mature enough to take on the responsibilities of an apprenticeship.

As much as he's being a lazy sod it is due to immaturity and he needs pushing through this even if it is frustrating.

Just tip the balance so the lack of effort he is putting in for short term gains is worth less than the reward.

As well as going by term I'd praise the good grades and ignore the crap ones and just keep a tally in a visible place so he can see where he ranks for a reward/loss of privilege

@Todayissunny

I hear you. Next year DS has his last chance to get on the academic /uni route or not. And if he doesn’t, that’s it. Hère thé choice is made when they go to lycée and it’s extremely difficult to reorient upwards if he suddenly decides to put the effort in.

And yes, the vocational / uni thing is almost a red herring - it’s the effort : commitment / motivation that’s lacking whether he’s studying Latin or hairdressing!

It's a difficult one, and all kids are different, motivated by different things.

I had one who was bright but coasting, more interested in being out playing football than doing his homework. I'd been standing over him making sure he did it, I even remember ripping one piece of work up as he'd rushed it and done a crap job just so he could get back outside, and made him do it again, it was exhausting.

At some point I sat him down for a serious chat...I told him that it wasn't up to me to make him do his homework. We talked about the future, what his ambitions were, what was important to him etc. He told me how he wanted to earn good money so he would have a nice house etc. I told him I was going to butt out from that point, that if he wanted to carry on as he was, he would end up with crap grades and not able to go to uni, probably not get the job he wanted, but that was fine with me as long as he was happy.

I think he was about 13/14 when we had this chat. Anyway he gradually started to knuckle down, I kept out of it, only offered support if he asked for it. He ended up doing extremely well academically and will be starting his phd later this year. I'm convinced that me backing off completely, and telling him if he didn't want to pass his exams that was his decision, was what led him to start working hard.

Maybe it's worth having that conversation. Talk to him about his hopes and dreams and what effort will be required to achieve them, and that ultimately, it's down to him.

Just to reassure you OP that all is not lost. My DH was a clever swot, BIL less so. MIL didn’t want him to fail or drop out (he was a lazy teen with little ambition or ideas) so she helped him lots, did more of his A Level coursework (art) than was good for him and did a lot of heavy lifting.

He got only ok A Level grades and did a bit of a joke degree at an ex-poly. A decade later and he is an extremely hardworking, respectable father, husband and secondary school teacher.

Some DC grow up later and some take a while to find their feet, but if he’s from a good home where you both work hard he will be fine.

I’d just keep doing what you’re currently doing, and have a Big Chat with him before the baccalaureate or whatever your exams are to emphasise why it’s important to work. But I’m certain he’ll come good eventually.

Good luck OP. My DS is a toddler so I’m not yet at this stage...