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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The answer to male violence- we cannot do nothing

17 replies

joystir59 · 12/03/2021 07:05

Andrea Dworkin gave this speech in the seventies ""Well, what I feel about it is that we have to use what we’ve got and what we’ve got isn’t very much and we have to find some way to keep the rapists off the streets. There are different ways of doing it, law is only one way of doing it.

I myself favour violence, deeply. I favour it.
And the reason that I favour it is that the law isn’t working. And as long as the law isn’t working women who have been attacked or who are being attacked need to understand that they have a right to defend themselves against anyone who is attacking them.

Many people prefer the legal system, I don’t blame them for that, I wish it would work. It’s not working. We have another 50 years to try to get it to work. We have a woman (whose name I’m not remembering right now) who killed a paedophile, who raped her son. It was clear that he was going to be acquitted, so she shot him. In my view she did the right thing. I admire her for what she did.

So, I’m willing to sit down with my sisters and think of a dozen other things that we can do that are not terrible things to do, but we have to do something. We can’t do nothing.

That’s my answer to you"

OP posts:
joystir59 · 12/03/2021 07:07

I meant to add, in the aftermath of Sarah Everard's murder aibu to think violence is the answer? #TooManyMen

OP posts:
Iqqq · 12/03/2021 07:31

Of course it's not. Don't be silly

ThighsofSteel · 12/03/2021 08:07

I feel strongly that the answer lies with men. Not just the offenders, but all men, peer pressure, if you like.

For example, when a sportsman commits a crime against a woman, it should be unacceptable to fans. Whilst most men will say they don't condone what he's done, he'll still find his way back into the sport and either be seen as a flawed hero, or male fans will convince themselves that the man, his personal failings and his sporting achievements are entirely seperate. This attitude from apparently decent men baffles me.

joystir59 · 12/03/2021 08:10

Comedian Hannah Gadsby explains this so well in her speech on "the good men"

OP posts:
joystir59 · 12/03/2021 08:11

@ThighsofSteel
See link to Hannah Gadsby above. She talks to the phenomenon of decent men doing nothing

OP posts:
DoormatBob · 12/03/2021 08:12

I'm inclined to agree. I have often thought that it could be good to replace any prison sentence over say 3 years with the death penalty.

I don't know why society is so obsessed with trying to accommodate bad people.

DateLoaf · 12/03/2021 08:15

Agreed. And a legal system with an absolute zero tolerance of all the ‘low level’ stuff that can escalate. Very high sanctions for all those.
Better handling of rape and domestic violence cases informed by listening to women and women’s groups. Much stronger sentences for rape and sexual assault and domestic violence and stalking crimes too. Getting social media companies to take responsibility for the constant anti-women stuff on there. Dealing with the overall pornification of relationships and society somehow. The list is endless but we need it all to change.

DateLoaf · 12/03/2021 08:17

I don’t agree to the death penalty whatsoever. I do agree that a reversal in male culture is required. Also that male prisons need to work on an anti-misogynistic culture.

Seatime · 12/03/2021 08:28

There needs to be a shift in attitudes to male violence. This needs to be spread all through society. There needs to be education of men from cradle to grave. The Nordic model of protecting prostituted women involves educating young men to think that only losers go to brothels and it's worked. That's in comparison to Amsterdam where its seen as normal for a young teen to go to a prostituted woman for their folirst time. There needs to be more resistance to porn on phones that kids can watch, hardcore and real rape, that 6 year olds are seeing. Male violence in video games, sex segregation in schools, defined gender roles, all these need to change. We need a total revamp of how men see women. It's a big task but there are practical measures that can be done today, like the Nordic model. I fear for the consequences to women of young men in lockdown glued to violent porn. I have noticed young men becoming more aggressive in public in regards to sexual harrasment of women, as if we are all targets in a video game. I would be loathe to bring a child into this porn culture.

Seatime · 12/03/2021 08:29

*first time

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 12/03/2021 08:49

The following was the closing post from Karen Ingala Smith at the webchat she did here last year. It really stuck with me and I think it's worth repeating here:

Men’s violence against women and girls is both a cause and consequence of sex inequality. Whilst perpetrators must be held responsible for their actions and behaviours, men’s violence against women is not reducible simply to individual acts perpetrated by individual men, but is a key instrument of men’s domination of women, supported and normalised by patriarchal institutions, attitudes and social norms and values.

The notion that all forms of men’s violence against women and girls – rape and other forms of sexual violence, intimate-partner violence and abuse, prostitution, FGM, pornography etc – are connected in a patriarchal society has, over the last couple of decades, entered mainstream policy and service provision – and that’s good. In fact it now has its own acronym: VAWG. But before I continue, I have to say that I hate how ‘vawg’ has become a word and the way that it has illustrates what often happens when concepts that originated in feminist analysis move into the mainstream.

I hate how ‘vawg’ has become a word because it allows users to disconnect from VIOLENCE against WOMEN and GIRLS. It hides the violence, it’s no longer spoken. I hate how ‘vawg’ has become a word because it allows users to hide the agent – MEN. As Mary Daly, said, “naming the agent is required for an adequate analysis of atrocities.” I hate how ‘vawg’ has become a word because I am not particularly fond of acronyms and jargon. Acronyms make important information inaccessible to those not in the know. And this does not serve women’s interests. The feminist concept, the continuum of men’s violence against women, enters the mainstream and some of the critical aspects of the concept are cast aside.

The concept of a continuum of sexual violence was first outlined by Liz Kelly in 1988 and in spite of how much I despise the way that the term ‘vawg’ has evolved, seeing the connections between all forms of men’s violence against women and girls is an absolutely critical step in ending that violence. But it is an early step in a very long road and there are constantly drives to push us backwards. For example, in 2010, the then coalition government launched its strategy, the Call to End Violence against Women and Girls, but less than a decade later, the Conservative government was developing its Domestic Violence Bill and the clear upfront and acknowledged connection was overshadowed. I think this is a bad and backwards move, but I’m not here to talk about bad and backwards moves, I’m supposed to be constructively looking for solutions.

So, if we leave aside overthrowing patriarchy, the radical feminist solution - not because I don’t think that would provide the answer but because it feels out of reach to me and anyway, we can’t afford to wait until patriarchy is overthrown to make changes - we need to start with firstly, connecting the forms of men’s violence; secondly, naming the agent; and third, recognising the patriarchal context and the critical role of sex inequalities. For feminists, identifying this is the easy bit.

The next bit is harder. Carol Hagermann-White developed a model to explain factors at play in violence against women and girls (men’s violence, as I’d prefer us to say every time) that I find very useful. She groups the factors into four main subsets:

  1. Overall structures in the social order, macro level
  2. The social norms and practises that regulate daily life, meso level
  3. Day to day interactions in the immediate environment, micro level
  4. People’s individual life histories, ontogenetic level.

And so, if we accept this model, it follows that the interventions that we need to make will need to address all these levels simultaneously and in a consciously connected way. To expand on that, and I can’t do this justice in the time I have, but I hope I can give you a flavour:
Addressing overall structures in the social order, the macro level interventions, requires policy responses that tackle all formal and substantive forms of sex inequality, normative models of heterosexual masculinity and femininity, the sexualisation and objectification of women and girls, women’s rights – and also include intersecting structural inequalities around class, poverty, race.

To recast the social norms and practises that regulate daily life, the meso level reforms, we need to do away with male entitlement, we need to improve criminal justice responses, from the laws themselves to conviction rates, making sure most if not all perpetrators are held to account by the state,. We need to eliminate discriminatory practice, overhaul attitudes to pornography and prostitution, in fact abolish prostitution, and ensure all services and interventions are informed by a feminist approach – including those outside the core anti-violence agenda (for example, welfare reforms must also be considered from a sexual equality and anti-men’s violence against women perspective; it’s clear that for something like universal credit, this didn’t happen).

With interventions at the micro level, we need to look at how the media represents women and violence against women, abandon sex-role stereotypes, challenge myths around sex inequality and men’s violence against women and girls, break down peer support (at all ages) that enables men’s violence against women and girls and reinforces sex inequality, make sure our specialist services are adequately resourced, and look at employment and education practices.

And finally, with individuals, we need to look at the attitudes and beliefs of each individual, how they are formed and how they can be changed, how we rear children, how we deal with and address early childhood trauma. We must make sure perpetrators are held to account by their family and peers and make sure the emotional and cognitive abilities for reflection, critical thinking and taking personal responsibility for our actions are developed and nurtured in all of us.

Tinkering about piecemeal with any of the things I’ve pointed out will not make a long term or significant change. We need a visionary, brave, cross-cutting, long-term and unashamedly woman-centred approach. It will have to be multi-disciplinary; it will have to have cross party support because changes like this go beyond what can be achieved in a governmental term.

Do I believe it is possible? I don’t know. Do I believe it is likely? No. There just isn’t the will. Patriarchal societies, in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, authority, social privilege and control of resources, ensure that power stays with the powerful and advantaged; it’s the same with socio-economic class, it’s the same with race. Sure, there will continue to be steps to address men’s violence against women and girls. Mostly these will have originated from feminists. But as we saw with the continuum of men’s violence against women, usually they’re watered down if they become formal policy responses – and that’s if they ever do at all. As Audre Lorde said, “the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house.”

The best trick patriarchy ever played is convincing most people that it does not exist. Sadly, most people are not feminists – but we are and we see it. And we are not going away. And whether we realistically expect to end men’s violence against women, girls and children or not, it isn’t going to and we can’t let it stop us fighting.

DateLoaf · 12/03/2021 09:29

Wow. Fantastic speech Flowers

AuntieStella · 12/03/2021 09:40

I think NAMALT is the answer - all these normal decent men, the majority, need (really need) to be part of the solution. In how they react to other men's conduct. In refusing to turn a blind eye tomall thise little acts of harassment which may in themselves fall short of being criminal, but which are formative of an environment which so readily allows escalation into the criminal.

I remember talking to a young man at my running club at the time of scary clowns. He was saying his awful it was to find himself thinking about whether it was safe to run his usual route - he didn't expect to be harmed, just on the wrong end of something sudden/humiliating/scary.

His face looked like a stopped clock when I told him woman runners have to think like that every single run and the other women there all agreed.

I hope he learned something that night

And that's what all men, especially the NAMALT, really need to learn. So they think and act accordingly. Including forming that kind of society where NAMALT is the norm, and it's 'policed' by the whole of society.

YoniAndGuy · 12/03/2021 10:18

@ThighsofSteel

I feel strongly that the answer lies with men. Not just the offenders, but all men, peer pressure, if you like.

For example, when a sportsman commits a crime against a woman, it should be unacceptable to fans. Whilst most men will say they don't condone what he's done, he'll still find his way back into the sport and either be seen as a flawed hero, or male fans will convince themselves that the man, his personal failings and his sporting achievements are entirely seperate. This attitude from apparently decent men baffles me.

Why does it baffle you? It's exactly the problem.

The poster above, saying NAMALT is the answer... if it were a case of NAMALT, we wouldn't have a problem.

It's most men. To varying degrees, but it's most men.

toconclude · 12/03/2021 23:03

@DoormatBob

I'm inclined to agree. I have often thought that it could be good to replace any prison sentence over say 3 years with the death penalty.

I don't know why society is so obsessed with trying to accommodate bad people.

WHAT? So fraud and theft (many of those offences carry 5 year plus terms) gets you executed? Honestly don't be dim.
ErrolTheDragon · 12/03/2021 23:10

@joystir59

I meant to add, in the aftermath of Sarah Everard's murder aibu to think violence is the answer? #TooManyMen
Of course YABU. Leaving aside all the many reasons civilised people eschew violence, in this case it's a bloody stupid idea because if you tried violence you'd lose, the violent men would do it so much better.Hmm
Literallynoidea · 12/03/2021 23:15

'I myself favour violence'

You lost me there

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