to be FURIOUS that Karen Ingala Smith and the Counting Dead Women Project were defamed?

[PottingCompost]

As I'm sure many of you know, for International Women's Day, Jess Phillips MP read all the names of the women killed by a man in the UK since the last IWD. One hundred and eighteen names. Usually she gets accused on social media of not caring about male murder victims afterwards. This year, I thought no-one would dare do that.

However, this afternoon, just a couple of days after Sarah Everard was found, a writer criticised the list on twitter, and claimed it was incomplete. She said, "Incorrect. Jess Phillips has never read out a complete list. Phillips and the author of Counting Dead Women deliberately exclude the names of murdered trans women (or as the founder of CDW calls them: 'males')."

That attack has been shared across twitter and across social media in general.

Just one big issue though. As Karen clarified, no names of murdered transwomen in the UK could have been read out, because none were murdered this year.

Karen said: if anyone wants to know why Jess Phillips didn’t read any names of men who identify as transwomen in the list of women killed by men since IWD last year, it’s largely because there were none.
There were 118 women though. One hundred and eighteen. Why do you overlook them?

She went on to add that if a transwoman is murdered, it would be Jess Phillips' decision, as she's the one to read the names in Parliament, whether to add her name to the list. (Which seems perfectly reasonable to me.)

This lie that names were left out has gone round all over the place. I don't expect it'll ever fully die.

Why was it so easy for people to believe the worst of Jess Phillips and Karen Ingala Smith? Thousands of people believed the worst of these two women who have done SO MUCH for women, on the basis of a twitter thread from a writer.

How much must a woman do to help and support others, before people give her the benefit of the doubt and do a fact-check, when someone smears her?

This has just broken me, more than any other amount of foolishness on SM ever has. That anyone could spread these lies, this week of all weeks. Someone will always find some excuse to get the public to dismiss projects like Counting Dead Women, instead of focusing on over one hundred dead women.

These are the links, btw.

twitter.com/Sarah_Woolley/status/1370051379276959744?s=19

twitter.com/K_IngalaSmith/status/1370070965519024133?s=19

The responses to that tweet on the page of the person who said it originally are 99% critical of it.

Also has been pointed out on it there's a trans day of remembrance.

I think the tide is turning tbh. People have had enough.

Because didn’t you know that trans women have it so much harder than everyone else and they are murdered/assaulted by the second!

Do people genuinely read the responses below the line though?

This came up for me on facebook. It had been shared as fact, so lots of anger and sad reacts from my friends. No-one went to check.

And it got me thinking: how many times have I seen murderers reported on as lovely family men? Everyone gives men who kill women the benefit of the doubt. It's going to turn out that the warning signs about the man who killed Sarah were there, but they were ignored.

But we can't give a domestic violence campaigner a smidgeon of the benefit of the doubt. It's straight to 'burn the witch'.

What must women do to be trusted? What must men do to be distrusted?

I completely understand that if this is the first time you've come across this then you'll find it very upsetting. But it happens every year. KIS/Counting Dead Women/Jean Hatchet's rides for dead women/the Femicide project... all have been absolutely slaughtered on twitter and social media generally for not including trans women. Even when there are no trans women to include.

Situation normal. All fucked up.

@HoldontoOneMoreDay

I completely understand that if this is the first time you've come across this then you'll find it very upsetting. But it happens every year. KIS/Counting Dead Women/Jean Hatchet's rides for dead women/the Femicide project... all have been absolutely slaughtered on twitter and social media generally for not including trans women. Even when there are no trans women to include.

Situation normal. All fucked up.

I genuinely had no idea.

This is insane.

Karen Ingala Smith, Jean Hatchet, they're volunteers dedicating their emotional energy and time to this!

Made me furious as well, and sadly led me to deleting a friend from FB because I didn’t have time for her bullshit.

I’m usually mad because of all the whataboutthemen bollocks, and spend most of the evening tweeting “Nov 19th, lobby your MP just like KIS did” but this year just takes the biscuit.

(Annoyingly, I was initially heartened this year as the number has fallen from previous years... but then I realised that’s because most of us were staying at home, so it probably means that whilst the ‘stranger murder’ rate has fallen, the DA rate will have risen)

At least it's not just me going through this, I suppose.

She went on to add that if a transwoman is murdered, it would be Jess Phillips' decision, as she's the one to read the names in Parliament, whether to add her name to the list. (Which seems perfectly reasonable to me

It's awful that this story has gone round.
Too many women are murdered by men.
Too many women face violence, sexual assault from men.
Too many women are afraid to walk home alone at night, they take precautions, alter routes etc
All because of the threats

If a transwoman was murdered by a man, they wouldn't count on the list Karen provides. She has made that clear in her blog.

kareningalasmith.com/2019/07/27/counting-dead-women-and-counting-people-who-identify-as-transgender/amp/

Her work is very important.

If a transwoman is murdered by a man because as far as the man is concerned, they see a woman, so it's a male act of violence against a woman, Karen won't count that on her important list.

If she excluded other groups of women from that list, there would be justifiable criticism.

But some people don't see a transwomen victim as female victim, even if the act was carried out by someone who saw them as female.

If, if, if, if.

How about you sit down? It's less than a week since IWD, and we have the first name on the list for next year. Think about that.

Let's go through some things. Do you, or in fact, my idiot friend on facebook, employ Karen Ingala Smith to do "her work"?

No, you don't. It is her project, that she has created. She has dedicated time and energy. She has trawled through crime reports, and she can draw the parameters of it where she wants. Social media activism that consists of seeing someone actually out there doing something and picking flaws with how they're doing it is not activism. It's just destruction. She's said herself that Jess Phillips is at liberty to add more names in but Karen won't do the research for it. Her line.

If you don't like the way she does it, do the same work yourself and ask Jess Phillips to collaborate with you.

If she excluded other groups of women from that list, there would be justifiable criticism.

What if it was an organisation dedicated to recognising women from a specific demographic, like disabled women? Would you be in there with an #AllWomenMatter then about someone not reading out the names of women without disabilities? Or would you acquire some decorum and respect then?

But some people don't see a transwomen victim as female victim, even if the act was carried out by someone who saw them as female.

Words mean things. I understood that transwomen were women, but now they're female too?

Your post has settled some things for me. It's suddenly become clear to me from your post that if a transwoman is tragically killed, the reporting of the names will revolve all around her awful murder and none of the other women who were killed. This is the one chance for us all to hear their names and think about them. Let's centre their lives and their grieving families on IWD, for crying out loud.

There is actually a Trans Remembrance Day for crying out loud. Remember murdered trans people then. Get Jess Phillips to read out the names of people killed in the UK then. Or another MP of your choice.

@PottingCompost

At least it's not just me going through this, I suppose.

it is definitely not just you op. I saw this too and was furious! All these people who are blinded by their own righteousness that they can come up with something so wrong.

There were no transwomen murdered last year. In the last 10 years more murders have been COMMITTED by transwomen than transwomen murdered. They make these false claims to support a narrative that trans people are subject to worse violence and murder than any other group and therefore need more protection at the cost of the safety of women and girls (see 'rapists in women's prison's thread).

The thing is, there is no evidence of this. If there was any actual evidence of this we could rely on these commentators and the very well-funded Stonewall etc to tell us all about it. They don't because it is not happening.

We do have evidence however, that women and girls are actually being murdered and raped but these people wish to turn the attention away from them and focus on a group that are the safest demographic and have the most protections (especially now in Scotland where even cross dressers have full protection under Hate Crime law but women remain totally excluded from Hate Crime protections).

Now I see it, I can't stop bloody seeing it.

Person does something valuable. They put boundaries on what they do, and get attacked for not doing enough.

It is better, in these times of social media, to do nothing to improve the world, than to do it and risk seeming too tightly focused on one area for some tastes.

This is like attacking people volunteering to do a litter pick, in their own time and at their own expense, because they didn't do your street too. Except far more crass.

If a transwoman is murdered by a man because as far as the man is concerned, they see a woman, so it's a male act of violence against a woman, Karen won't count that on her important list.

If she excluded other groups of women from that list, there would be justifiable criticism.

But some people don't see a transwomen victim as female victim, even if the act was carried out by someone who saw them as female.

Trans people have their own struggles. Most transwomen don't 'pass'. The two transwomen that were murdered most recently (1 in 2018 and 1 in 2019) were murdered by their partner so their partner knew that they were not born female. They were definitely not murdered because anyone thought they were female.

I very much doubt you would find any examples of a transwoman who has been murdered because someone thought they were actually female - in fact, murders of trans sex workers in South America (by percentage still lower than the rate of female sex workers murdered) have tended to be because they were found not to be female.

Therefore it is not appropriate or correct to include transwomen on a list of women murdered (even if there were any to include).

Trans people have just had LGBTQ+ History month, there is also Pride month over the summer and apparently Trans Day of Remembrance which lasted a week in November.

That is 2 months and 1 week of the year when trans people have a specific platform and many promotions for their issues.

I think women should have just a bit of time to focus on our issues for International Women's Day??

YANBU, some people are just thick as shit. Imagine how fucking righteous and up your own arse you have to be to not even bother checking first to see if any transwomen have been killed before tweeting that. It blows my mind.

Out of all the horrible tweets yesterday that one just blew my mind. Women aren't allowed anything of our own. Even when it's the most horrible, tragic thing like a list of women who have been murdered FFS, we're still told we have to centre things that never even happened to males. Why did she do it? What went through her mind to post something so spiteful and cruel? I don't know if she really believes it, she's after pats on the head for her wokeness or she's just some contrarian but whatever the reason it is sickening.

It's bloody disgraceful. We can't even mention the names of women who have been murdered in the last year without being told off with whataboutery about a group who have had none.
Anyone doing this is not only sexist but thick as mince and lacking in all empathy for women. I have lost all patience with it.

This response on that thread was spot on:

Imagine a room with 118 people. Their faces. Their lives. Their hopes and dreams.
These are the women killed this year.
Now imagine an empty room.
These are the transwomen killed this year.
Which group do we need to take action for do you think?

If you answer is both, it says a lot about the value you place on women's lives. Because 118 lives matter more than 0 lives. And if you don't think that, you think we are worth less than 118th of nothing.

YANBU on all points I share your anger and tears.

Dr Jessica Taylor who wrote 'Why Women are Blamed for Everything' - herself a survivor of sexual abuse - talks about the projects she has set up and the research she has done concerning male victims of abuse and violence. Not a single woman ever wrote asking 'what about the women'. Not ever.

Then she set up 'Victim Focus' which was about women. Immediately she was attacked by angry men telling her that women were violent too and wanting to know why they were excluded. On publication of the book she received, and still receives, thousands of abusive messages including rape and death threats.

She about that experience. victimfocusblog.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/

Once you spot the extent of male entitlement in society it is hard to unsee it. "There’s only three things you can be certain of in life: taxes, death and some randomer yelling ‘what about men?’ every time you talk about women’s issues."

Yep.

And you are totally NBU. That tweet was seriously misogynistic and cruel.

@Olderstyle1

Dr Jessica Taylor who wrote 'Why Women are Blamed for Everything' - herself a survivor of sexual abuse - talks about the projects she has set up and the research she has done concerning male victims of abuse and violence. Not a single woman ever wrote asking 'what about the women'. Not ever.

Then she set up 'Victim Focus' which was about women. Immediately she was attacked by angry men telling her that women were violent too and wanting to know why they were excluded. On publication of the book she received, and still receives, thousands of abusive messages including rape and death threats.

She about that experience. victimfocusblog.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/

Once you spot the extent of male entitlement in society it is hard to unsee it. "There’s only three things you can be certain of in life: taxes, death and some randomer yelling ‘what about men?’ every time you talk about women’s issues."

Yep.

Another analogy I use all the time is my pal. Let's call her Jenny. For that is her name.

She's mad about dogs. Volunteers at the shelter. Fosters dogs. Does fundraising.

I asked her once, I said 'Jenny, has anyone ever came up to you and said 'what about the cats?''

She looked at me like I had two heads and said 'No Holdon. They've got their own charities and everything. I mean, it's not that I hate cats mind you. I just don't have enough time to save the cats and the dogs so I choose the dogs. But no-one's ever asked me about the cats.'

I have had workmen in my fucking home ask me what I'm doing about domestic violence towards men (they saw some posters I was working on and were having what I thought was a nice chat about it). Women can't just work for women. Ever.

Its just the woke version of 'but what about men'
Well what about them?
They're not dead.
We're talking about dead women right now ffs its so infuriating that we can't centre dead women for even one day, this week of all weeks.
Im furious.

Nice analogy Holdon ... I'm very fond of quokkas but have noticed that there are literally NO THREADS about them on MN and NO MENTION of them in threads about entirely different topics.

Time to start yelling what about the quokkas at regular intervals I think. Who's with me?

I think we need to start saying “but what about women” every time a male post comes up.

Woman: "Women are being murdered, we need to do something".

Men: "What about my feelings?"

I don't know if its mental illness that makes some people so utterly selfish and self-consumed, but there's something wrong there.