To think if the job makes you miserable...

[Sorefret]

It's going to make you miserable no matter what you earn?

So, if people are leaving e.g. teaching or nursing in droves, increasing the pay isn't going to change that, there's something else wrong. In fact, you could even argue good pay makes the problem worse because it makes it easier to take early retirement.

So, what needs to change is the working conditions, not the pay, if you want to improve retention.

I left a very lucrative, but incredibly high pressure, career in commercial banking to teach. Theres no way I'd go back to that for any amount of money.

I'd work wherever and as whatever made me happy. Couldn't care less about money as long as I am happy and it doesn't negatively impact my mental health. As soon as it does, then I'm out. No job is worth it, no amount of money is worth it. Happiness and health is the most important thing in the world and life is too short to spend a moment unhappy.

I agree I left the NHS in March 2020 and would not go back. Years of watching services being cut, my profession be completely devalued and all hope of progression beyond band 7 removed could not be fixed by a piddling pay rise. I now work for a private company that buys up NHS contracts, I get paid more and the patients get a gold standard service for free. As an individual I don't like the idea of the NHS being privatized. However as a clinician I like that all my work is patient based and I am not spending hundreds of wasteful hours in meetings that serve no purpose.

There is a balance, having a high pressure job can be worth it if it let's you afford more spontaneous weekend breaks away, buy in help like a cleaner, allows your kids to have more experiences.

From experience, it felt demeaning putting my all into a job but only getting words back - where private sector colleagues had a much higher base salary and perks.

I had better stories though imo..

Working conditions and pay are often inextricably linked though. Pay well enough and you attract enough people not to have understaffing and the remaining staff stretched too far and overworked. Plus if the working conditions are bad, decent pay is a counterbalance to that which makes it easier to enjoy any time off you have and reduce everyday stress levels to compensate for stress from the job. I don’t agree with you other than to say if the choice is an either/or then I agree threat it’s more important to improve working conditions. I don’t think my current job is good enough in either area (and it is a profession where people are leaving in droves, I’m a GP). I’d prefer working conditions to be improved but barring that an increase in pay might retain me for a while longer.

Hmmm, I kind of agree. Certainly, most people I know in the NHS are more unhappy with the general conditions than the pay.

But I can put up with a lot of stress in a job if I feel that I am valued. And being paid more definitely helps me feel that my employer values me. And being paid more helps relieve stress, if you have to work overtime but a higher salary means you can come home to a house that you've paid someone to clean for you, you can afford a takeaway, etc. So, I'm on the fence. Both would be the ideal

It's been proven that more money isn't the key to people feeling good about their job (as long as they earn a certain amount).

People are far more motivated by feeling they're doing something worthwhile, or feeling they make a difference.

@CoRhona

It's been proven that more money isn't the key to people feeling good about their job (as long as they earn a certain amount).

People are far more motivated by feeling they're doing something worthwhile, or feeling they make a difference.

Agreed. Not earning enough money works as a demotivator, but having enough doesn't increase your job satisfaction once you're earning a certain amount. Meaningful and interesting work is generally what drives people.

I agree. I did a PGCE and never went into teaching. Even if offered £100k a year. Too much stress.

Depends. If the pay increases, maybe the hours can decrease.

I'm inclined to agree but I feel as though if I were earning ridiculous money I'd be inclined to tough it out at least for the short while. I'd much rather be a miserable banker than a miserable fast-food worker iyswim?

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

Depends. If the pay increases, maybe the hours can decrease.

That doesn't help fill jobs either

I think the general conditions need to improve and it's not all about money. But having said that, I'm sure a payrise would be welcome in the NHS at least.

I really like my job (NHS) it is really rewarding. But the pay does matter. I trained for years and years and had to fund many parts of my qualification/CPD. Lots of low paid roles to secure experience (some 'volunteering early on). not to mention years of studying nights and weekends after work. Whilst my contemporaries were earning good money in accountancy, management consultancy IT etc I wasn't. I couldn't have done West they do and it really never was about the money. But at a certain age you do reflect on your financial future and I've got to start priorising paying down the mortgage (many of my contemporaries have no mortgage now). If a patriae ends up not even outrunning inflation is a pay cut, which doesn't feel like we are being valued. AND will put off people pursuing NHS professional roles (mid career, after all their trainng often)...

I tend to think I am not particularly money orientated. But I have recently left a job because in the end I felt I wasn't paid enough for the stress and worry I felt.It was a combination of ££ and not being appreciated generally . I am now in another related role , a bit less money , more hours but less stress and anxiety . I feel more fairly rewarded for what i do and how stressed i am. If I had been better paid in the first job I might ve carried on and been less resentful. There are lots of jobs where high wages are seen as a trade off for high stress /responsibility - wonder why it is questioned whether more money will help retain staff in other sectors.

@Sorefret

It's going to make you miserable no matter what you earn?

So, if people are leaving e.g. teaching or nursing in droves, increasing the pay isn't going to change that, there's something else wrong. In fact, you could even argue good pay makes the problem worse because it makes it easier to take early retirement.

So, what needs to change is the working conditions, not the pay, if you want to improve retention.

I left a very lucrative, but incredibly high pressure, career in commercial banking to teach. Theres no way I'd go back to that for any amount of money.

I've never heard any teacher say they're leaving because of the salary.

I left a very lucrative, but incredibly high pressure, career in commercial banking to teach. Theres no way I'd go back to that for any amount of money.

Interestingly I'm school support staff & a few colleagues left banking for teaching, they much prefer it although I guess their previous career has given them a buffer.

I left a higher paying field for my role, was over the stress of it.

Of course pay matters. If you truly hate / feel unsuited to a job then no amount of money will fix that, but if you're working hard and questioning whether you're valued money can help a great deal.

A few years ago I was a solicitor on a six-figure salary. I now run a food bank for minimum wage, once you factor in my hours. I've never been happier, but I wouldn't do it for free.

I am occasionally involved in recruitment in the nhs. There is due to be a crisis of staffing in my area, as the numbers incoming to the speciality are far lower than those leaving. The average of practioner means that a significant chunk of the work force will retire in the next 10 years with not enough people qualifying to replacement. We currently "open" recruit which is where we interview on an going basis, as we can not recruit for my team faster than vacancies are created.

Something has to be done. We can't wait until there is no one left to recruit. Its genuinely a future that could cripple services

Some of it will be about supporting people through qualifying (return of nhs bursary for tuition) and some of it will be about encouraging people to consider joining the nhs in the first place. That will mean better conditions, unfortunately what worries people about my sector is somewhat due to short staffing, high case loads etc. So pay is the easier thing to change to get people in the door

I think it's true that if you hate a job, no amount of money will make it ok, (although it can be a factor in making you stick with it for a specific purpose, eg buying a home).

But I also think that decent pay can help make you feel valued as an employee, and lack of it can be the last straw in making you feel as though your employer is just taking the piss.

In the case of nurses and other HCPs, the poor wages for the lower grades are a real disincentive to staying in the profession. When you're working really hard, for long hours, doing a job that can be unpleasant and distressing, without the resources, equipment etc that you need to do the job safely and effectively, why would you put up with it when you can be better rewarded and have better working conditions doing something else?

When staff who are doing such essential and literally life-saving work have to rely on benefits to keep a roof over their heads, something is very, very wrong.

The conditions need addressing.

I used to be a UK secondary school teacher and left after 5 years. At the time that was the average length of time for a secondary teacher to stick it out post qualification (though obviously that was mainly people leaving in the first year balanced against people leaving after 10+ years, not that most people left after 5 like me).

I enjoyed the actual teaching. I knew I was taking a massive pay cut from my previous career. A higher salary wouldn't have made me stay.

I hated the patronising attitude of senior managent, most of whom had no idea how to manage adults and treated more junior teachers like sixth formers. I hated the laborous and usually pointless collection of statistics which were rarely used for anything useful, the blame culture, the constantly changing "initiatives" and the 1984 style culture of not being allowed to point out that this month's Initiative was in direct opposition to the one quietly shelved from last month (or indeed not shelved by left running alongside). I hated the unsatisfactory bits and pieces solutions to problems which avoided addressing the root of any problem but instead piled extra work onto individual teachers without any real chance of achieving change.

The problem with secondary teaching is that 75% of what teachers are expected to do doesn't actually help the children at all - its essentially busy work, yet completely non negotiable.

Countries where teachers tend to stay in the profession have higher community respect for teachers, better work life balance and better working conditions including civil service type job security.

I don’t agree salary alone makes you feel valued if it’s higher. That’s about the support you get in work and the workplace culture isn’t it? At the end of the day, employees are all disposable. Some are just paid more. I’ve had a miserable minimum wage job and a miserable well-paid job, the unhappiness I felt was the same in both.

In the case of nurses, they are leaving because they don’t feel valued (could get paid a lot more in other sectors/countries) which makes the job harder for other nurses trying to cover their shifts. Then the nurses left behind struggle and want to leave too. And recruitment takes forever.

I worked in HR in schools and a few teachers who left did come back because they struggled to make as much money doing something else. Not junior teachers though, those on UPS. I’m sure they did struggle to match those salaries where we live.

I earn £8000 less than I earned last year.

I left a public sector, well paid job after nearly 18 years due to bullying and discrimination that left me suicidal.

Despite several high paid job offers, I took the one that was lowest paid and temporary but seems easiest, just to get my confidence back.

So far so good. Its going well, everyone is nice and my confidence is coming back.