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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to wonder WTF has happened to nursing “care” in our NHS?

536 replies

AnnieGetYourPun · 27/02/2021 16:31

And don’t tell me it’s all Covid/staff shortages/staff illness related.

My niece was eventually admitted to hospital after being sent home twice from A&E (in agony) and is now on a gynae ward. It’s just her and an elderly lady on the ward. The elderly lady was getting agitated as she needed the toilet. The nurse came and said, and I quote “it’s alright, use your pad and we’ll come and sort you out later”. This has really upset my niece who’s dodging sepsis now, on the ward, on massive IV antibiotics/anti-emetics and IV analgesia. She has narrowly avoided a ruptured uterus as there was no one to do a scan on her, after a 12 hr wait in A&E. She is 32.

Nurses now... all of ‘em have degrees. All dead clever. Very few of them have an ounce of “caring” in them.

Fry me on here. I’m past fucking caring.

Should add. I trained in the NHS. Was a student/junior staff nurse/senior staff nurse/junior sister and G grade senior sister before retirement. Never, in my f***g life have I seen such lack of basic care and maintenance of human dignity than I have witnessed in NHS hospitals, in the past two years.

Shove your clapping and rainbows.

OP posts:
JFCO · 01/03/2021 01:54

I have to agreed with you OP, I am afraid :( Only had close encounters with GP and a hospital for the last 2 months, but the lack of care is astonishing! Every single complaint is met with: 'it is not possible to see/look/treat you because of covid', I had to beg dr for stronger painkillers with tears streaming down my face- it was for my DH- I had to beg nurses at the hospital to look at him, had to beg dr for an MRI (denied)... I have never thought I would be in this situation:( This is UK, NHS, by the way. We did clap last summer- little did I know how my DH will be treated by them :(
I have no tears left and no more fight in me. We got ourselves a loan and he will be seeing a private dr this week.

Tinkerbell456 · 01/03/2021 02:10

As a nurse of many years, I’m sorry to hear about your neice’s experience. On the face of it, not great care. I do think though that to call nurses as a whole uncaring is simply not true. Usual bad apples etc., but most nurses I’ve ever encountered care very much.

Crikeycroc · 01/03/2021 02:24

@WhoWants2Know

It's quite common for a person to need two people to assist them to the toilet if they are unsteady on their feet. It's also common for people with a UTI to have a constant feeling of urgently needing to urinate, even if their bladder is empty.

It's a shame if your niece was upset, but she has no idea about the woman's needs or why the nurse didn't immediately assist her to the toilet.

With a nursing background, I would have thought you would understand that. But instead you decide to start a nurse bashing, goady thread...🤔

Exactly. I’ve told numerous patients that they can pass urine in their pad. Am I horrible degree educated nurse lacking in compassion? No. Usual scenario is that they have a UTI, are confused and have just had a catheter inserted.
HoppingPavlova · 01/03/2021 03:14

Who knows? There may have been some very good reason why it was more appropriate for the elderly lady to go on the pad versus being taken to a toilet. I had one of mine in hospital recently and for the first two days I had them go on pads and the mats. It was genuinely a better option than a bedpan for various reasons and they were not able to leave the bed to use the bathroom. My (adult) child was begging to use the bathroom but we’re not in a rational state. I’m a loving parent, also a HCP. Your niece had no idea what this lady’s situation was and whether the nurses reaction was valid or not.

Vgtasd · 01/03/2021 03:46

Totally agree that some nurses dont care at all, a few years ago my ds had pneumonia, I stayed with him on the ward even though the nurses were determined to get me to go home, other babies monitors would constantly go off during the night and appeared to be ignored, when I went to the nurses station a grumpy nurse eating crisps grunted she'd be there in a minute, total lack of urgency and care

WhatTheActualFreshHell · 01/03/2021 04:00

After experienced the 'care' extended to my DS when he had leukaemia, I have to agree with the OP.

I am totally disillusioned with nurses, doctors and HCPs.

Rainbows and clapping? Nope - never from me.

MixedUpFiles · 01/03/2021 04:06

A human being states a need to use the toilet. There may be a legitimate reason taking that person to the toilet would harm the person making the request. The people problem
Is instead of explaining that to the patient they are told to pee on a pad like an animal. It’s ridiculously insulting.

Maverickess · 01/03/2021 05:23

Disclaimer - I work in a care home, not a nurse.
Regarding the being told to use a pad instead of the toilet, on the face of it, not acceptable.
However, how would you feel if I left a relative of yours in a dangerous situation, to take someone else to the toilet?
Because in a home that's sometimes the choice we face, which is a less stressful and obviously non medical environment, with less going on. If we're dealing with someone who needs two for safety reasons, and someone else needs the toilet, well they need to wait unfortunately, we have to prioritise safety over anything else, and yes, I will reassure and say it's ok, you can use your pad, I can't discuss where I am or what I'm doing in detail because that's confidential.

Also, you know, someone has to go first, and someone last when people want or need help at the same time. Unless there's a massive investment in healthcare in general, to enable 1:1 (or 2:1 if needed) care across the board, someone's always going to have to wait. But then no one wants to be the one who waits.

We're not technically 'short staffed' either, in fact legally we've probably got more staff on some shifts than the guidelines state as a minimum, but we're still outnumbered (for want of a better phrase) by residents.

That's the practical side of things, and unfortunately there's no getting away from that.

That said, I have experienced some poor care, both as a patient (less so) and as an escort to residents that have needed to attend hospital. Dementia patients are particularly at risk ime, possibly due to lack of understanding and training, and also probably because they take up more time than an average patient with the same condition or injury due to the nature of dementia. I've been told to 'do something!' by medical staff - what they expected I don't know, I could no more force compliance than they could, I was there to basically stop them wandering and putting themselves further at risk and offer the constant reassurance dementia patients often need, working in dementia care doesn't mean I have a magic answer.
While there are definitely nurses that are poor at hands on care and dealing with patients as people, I don't think that can be purely put down to them having a degree, though I do think that maybe longer on the wards as well as the classroom might help with that. I've worked with care workers who weren't in the slightest bit caring too.
I think the poor care, like poor customer service stands out more, and poor management and poor resources contribute in no small way. I also feel that the social norm of presenteeism has a lot to answer for. We expect 100% performance all the time and no mistakes to be made, well apart from being unrealistic when you're dealing with humans, there's also the fact that being ill is detrimental to performance, yet you are often given a hard time, pressured to work when ill and can be disciplined for being ill too often, or for having a family crisis etc. So apart from having humans with faults at the heart of this, you've sometimes got humans that could be ill or in the middle of something going really wrong, who are being overworked and treated poorly by their employers and also sometimes by the people they're trying to help. It's no wonder that some lose their caring side sometimes or all together really.
I think we need to look long and hard about why it's being perceived to be getting worse, and what we're asking of nurses and other HCPs because they're human too.

ElphabaTheGreen · 01/03/2021 06:01

I’m an OT - I’ve worked with ward nurses for almost 20 years.

You get great nurses, you get not so great nurses, I’ve worked with three nurses who I’ve reported for shocking care (the one who put soup into a large syringe for a confused patient refusing food and told an HCA to pull his head back while she squirted it in saying, ‘He’ll have to swallow now or he’ll drown’ got deregistered, I hope). But it’s the same for all health care professionals. I’ve worked with some awful OTs.

The not so great nurses have very, very common themes which drive me batshit every day:

  • they treat their printed handovers as the font of all information about the patient, even if it hasn’t been updated for days. Reading the medical notes is only for the doctors, apparently
  • what they see on the day must be what the patient is forever and ever and they exist in a vacuum. Making contact with the family to find out what this patient’s ‘normal’ is is everybody else’s job but theirs. If we ask, ‘who have they got at home?’ we get ‘I don’t know, it hasn’t been handed over to me’. Well fucking ASK YOUR PATIENT.
  • communication is awful. Awful. They are the staff on the ward all the time so are in the best position to pass on information to the medical team or families from us when we’re not around to do it. They don’t. And if a family asks them a question about what therapists are doing they make zero effort to read our notes to let them know on the spot - we’re then left playing phone tig with family for days when they had that information in front of them to pass on straight away
  • if it’s slightly awkward or difficult it’s not their job and must be for a specialist nurse or doctor. A patient’s mother died while he was an inpatient with us. The B6 ward sister called the medical team to the ward to get them to tell him. She was a senior nurse and the most familiar face to that patient on the ward - there was zero reason to delegate that job other than can’t-be-arsedness.
  • sitting patients out. Getting some nurses to sit patients out when therapists aren’t about is like pulling teeth. Getting catheters taken out of less mobile patients who really no longer need them is also impossible as it saves them having to walk patients to the toilet. If I had a pound for every time I’ve gently reminded nurses about the role these things have in prevention of chest infections and UTIs, which would ultimately take more of their time and effort than taking the preventative actions in the first place, I could retire. Or do they really prefer the reduced physical effort in putting up IV antibiotics to hoisting out? Or delegating an HCA to 1:1 a patient out of their tree with UTI delirium to save a walk to the loo?
MissTrip82 · 01/03/2021 06:21

Having a degree = ‘dead clever”.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

digbygreen · 01/03/2021 06:53

Can only comment on my own experience, currently in hospital with my newborn after being readmitted and the nursing team could not be more compassionate or caring, they have been immensely supportive.

NeedToKnow101 · 01/03/2021 06:55

When my mum was dying last year I found the nurses mainly very caring. If I was a bit late to visit (tried to arrive before lunch), I would walk in to them patiently trying to feed her. I also found the OTs caring.

My sibling, on the other hand, found everyone uncaring. Sometimes we have wildly different perspectives of the same situation.

Schonerlebnis · 01/03/2021 07:05

@RosesAndHellebores the tea was cool. If I’d moved it out of reach I would have been accused of denying him fluid. Can’t win sometimes can we ?

ElphabaTheGreen · 01/03/2021 07:29

@NeedToKnow101

When my mum was dying last year I found the nurses mainly very caring. If I was a bit late to visit (tried to arrive before lunch), I would walk in to them patiently trying to feed her. I also found the OTs caring.

My sibling, on the other hand, found everyone uncaring. Sometimes we have wildly different perspectives of the same situation.

This is very, very true. Sometimes you can’t win for losing. One patient will think you’re God’s gift to healthcare, the next will report you to PALS, even if your standard of care is equally high and you think you’ve bent over backwards to adapt to individual needs.
stairway · 01/03/2021 07:34

Well anyway, I hope this thread makes people feel better, but the reality is the nhs and care is going to get much worse, delayed treatment due to covid, less money and less staff. Complaining likely won’t help either as there will be less staff to deal with that too. We might try and fill the gaps again by raiding developing countries for their health care staff, but considering the PPE scandal has killed so many from ethnic backgrounds maybe they won’t come. Anyway if working conditions worsen, I’d probably just look for work away from the ward as it’s so tough and quite often thankless. We’ll all just have to look after our own relatives in hospital like they do in poorer countries and expect minimal treatment.

FedNlanders · 01/03/2021 07:38

I care for the elderly and i am a bloody good nurse but I agree im constantly battling against benchmarks and lack of funds but I would still never say to them to do it in the pad.

FedNlanders · 01/03/2021 07:41

@Maverickess

Disclaimer - I work in a care home, not a nurse. Regarding the being told to use a pad instead of the toilet, on the face of it, not acceptable. However, how would you feel if I left a relative of yours in a dangerous situation, to take someone else to the toilet? Because in a home that's sometimes the choice we face, which is a less stressful and obviously non medical environment, with less going on. If we're dealing with someone who needs two for safety reasons, and someone else needs the toilet, well they need to wait unfortunately, we have to prioritise safety over anything else, and yes, I will reassure and say it's ok, you can use your pad, I can't discuss where I am or what I'm doing in detail because that's confidential. Also, you know, someone has to go first, and someone last when people want or need help at the same time. Unless there's a massive investment in healthcare in general, to enable 1:1 (or 2:1 if needed) care across the board, someone's always going to have to wait. But then no one wants to be the one who waits. We're not technically 'short staffed' either, in fact legally we've probably got more staff on some shifts than the guidelines state as a minimum, but we're still outnumbered (for want of a better phrase) by residents.

That's the practical side of things, and unfortunately there's no getting away from that.

That said, I have experienced some poor care, both as a patient (less so) and as an escort to residents that have needed to attend hospital. Dementia patients are particularly at risk ime, possibly due to lack of understanding and training, and also probably because they take up more time than an average patient with the same condition or injury due to the nature of dementia. I've been told to 'do something!' by medical staff - what they expected I don't know, I could no more force compliance than they could, I was there to basically stop them wandering and putting themselves further at risk and offer the constant reassurance dementia patients often need, working in dementia care doesn't mean I have a magic answer.
While there are definitely nurses that are poor at hands on care and dealing with patients as people, I don't think that can be purely put down to them having a degree, though I do think that maybe longer on the wards as well as the classroom might help with that. I've worked with care workers who weren't in the slightest bit caring too.
I think the poor care, like poor customer service stands out more, and poor management and poor resources contribute in no small way. I also feel that the social norm of presenteeism has a lot to answer for. We expect 100% performance all the time and no mistakes to be made, well apart from being unrealistic when you're dealing with humans, there's also the fact that being ill is detrimental to performance, yet you are often given a hard time, pressured to work when ill and can be disciplined for being ill too often, or for having a family crisis etc. So apart from having humans with faults at the heart of this, you've sometimes got humans that could be ill or in the middle of something going really wrong, who are being overworked and treated poorly by their employers and also sometimes by the people they're trying to help. It's no wonder that some lose their caring side sometimes or all together really.
I think we need to look long and hard about why it's being perceived to be getting worse, and what we're asking of nurses and other HCPs because they're human too.

Wholeheartedly agree.
Cyw2018 · 01/03/2021 07:45

[quote AnnieGetYourPun]@Cyw2018 and thank you... you’ve brought us full circle to the “take it or leave it/other countries don’t even HAVE an NHS/be grateful and shut up” attitude where poor care breeds and thrives. And you’re not yet fully qualified are you? Apologies if I confuse you with someone else, but as I remember you’re still training.

Dear me.[/quote]
Oh you really are confusing me with someone else, i'm a band 6 whose been working in the NHS for over 20 years across two different health care professions during that time.

OP there seems to be some serious holes in your posts.

You say you retired 3 years ago from a G grade role yet A4C has been in since 2004?!

Your niece in on "massive IV analgesia" yet you can't see the possible problem with her account of ward life, and can't for a minute think that is could be a legitimate mobility or manual handling issue as many previous posters have suggested rather than neglect. You would be better support for your niece if you reassured her that the staff will have had good reason for leaving the patient to pas urine on a pad, rather than winding you niece up over neglect issues at a time when you niece is alone, scared and vulnerable.

You know your nieces medical status in detail, yet I'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that you are not her NOK and also that a 32 year old would have the capacity to be dealing with the hospital staff directly, and since hospitals have no visiting except where patients are dying, therefore what you are passing judgement on is second or even third hand info, most likely via no healthcare qualified realtives. Do you see the possible problem there?

You complained that the nurses tried to prevent your father tearing out his urinary catherter. I once dealt with a man who had ripped his catheter out (accidentally at home, he snagged the tube to his leg bag on furniture whilst in just his dressing gown) and lost 2l of blood as a result. That kind of haemrohage would likely have killed an older person, like your 92 year old father. You would have certainly complained then, and likely sued judging by your attitude diplayed in this thread.

I just pity you local NHS staff who must dread the day that you or one of your relatives require hospital treatment.

You clearly have an agenda against current NHS staff and this thread your have started is vile.

wewillmeetagain · 01/03/2021 07:56

Op i agree! It's absolutely disgusting! I blame the fact that its all degree based! It doesn't attract the kind of people that see it as a vocation. Ex nurse/midwife here and I absolutely cringe when i go into a hospital ward now days.

Ispini · 01/03/2021 08:07

@FatCatThinCat

YANBU it's been going down hill for years. My dad died 8 years ago and the care he received was extremely poor. We had to make sure he was fed, watered and cleaned. If he'd had no family support he'd have been in a bad way. In the end they woke him up at 3.00 am as they needed the bed so needed to send him home. Stuck a frail old man with Parkinson's and dementia in a taxi and washed their hands of him. First my mum knew about it was the local postie knocking on her door and waking her up having found my dad wandering aimlessly on the estate.
FatCatThinCat, that is absolutely disgraceful, your poor Dad, how upsetting for you and your family. 😔
HeadNorth · 01/03/2021 08:09

The OP comes across as one of those dreadful older people who is convinved everything was 'better in their day' and thinks young people 'lack respect'. This genus often went to 'the university of common sense' and despise fancy university degrees, greatly distrusting education and the educated. We have all met them, many of us have a least one in our family. And boy I pity any professional who has deal with them, especially if they are the despised trifecta of young, female and qualified. So nurses really won't stand a chance.

Coffeeandcocopops · 01/03/2021 08:13

@HeadNorth

The OP comes across as one of those dreadful older people who is convinved everything was 'better in their day' and thinks young people 'lack respect'. This genus often went to 'the university of common sense' and despise fancy university degrees, greatly distrusting education and the educated. We have all met them, many of us have a least one in our family. And boy I pity any professional who has deal with them, especially if they are the despised trifecta of young, female and qualified. So nurses really won't stand a chance.
Dreadful older people.......

Ageist comment. Change older for black.

Cyw2018 · 01/03/2021 08:15

@Coffeeandcocopops

Why change it for black. I know plenty of highly educated forward thinking black people.

Coffeeandcocopops · 01/03/2021 08:17

Got nothing to do with being black - I’m just pointing out the ageism in your comment. Who cares what age the OP is - she is perfectly entitled to have an opinion just like you. But there is no need to refer to her age !!

PinkPlantCase · 01/03/2021 08:19

@Cyw2018 @HeadNorth

If you put the OPs points about how nurses are trained aside people on this thread have shared experiences of where they have found care to be poor.

Are we not allowed to criticise anymore? We can both be grateful for nurses/the NHS and still admit that there are faults and areas of improvements.

Whilst poor care is (hopefully) very much the minority it has a big impact on people at a time in their life where they are vulnerable. It can leave them feeling scared of ever needed to be in hospital again because of the quality of care received in the past.

Even if people personally aren’t on the receiving end but just witness poor standards, this can make them concerned for themselves aswell as family members in the future.