AIBU to wonder how relationships get this far?

[WhoStoleMyCheese]

I am personally a very 'traditional' person - and I have told DP (we are living together) that if we are still together in 4 years I will be expecting to marry him. I do not need a proposal etc but 4 years is enough to know whether I want to spend the rest of my life with a person. Most of the people I know IRL get married within a few years of living together.

However on here I see a lot of threads on here with women who have been in relationships for years.. want to get married, but partner doesn't particularly.
AIBU to wonder how it gets that far and whether it's actually that common? Or just selection bias as satisfied people wouldn't post on here?

Thought and opinions please

@BoyTree

Plenty of people, mostly women, are very passive about their lives and happy to cede agency to someone else rather than work on and stick to standards and boundaries and believe 'love' is some magical property that will conquer all.

You may be right, but it sounds like you're blaming the women rather than the society in which they grow up where this attitude is (or has been) actively encouraged.

This is why its so important that young people particularly young women are properly educated on what marriage means.

Marriage is still seen as something which happens naturally because people love each other and is accompanied by this miasma of woo and side-issues (parties, dresses, engagement rings) etc, which clouds the facts about what it means to people's lives.

It may be that there's a "moral" overlay to this: ie that there's a hangover from the days when it was seen as a bad thing to live in sin.

Nowadays very few people still believe that sex should wait until after marriage rightly in my view but they fail to understand that just because marriage isn't essential to facilitate sex or cohabitation, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Marriage is about protection. And any woman (or man for that matter) who is planning to step away from being financially active for a period of time to raise children, needs to be taught that marriage is a way to insure yourself against that financial inactivity.

It's not about blame or fault: the reality is that marriage if beneficial to whichever person does the bulk of childbearing and childcare. For totally understandable reasons, men tend to sidestep marriage until they really have to do it. You can't blame for this in some ways: a wedding is a huge pain in the arse and marriage is financially disadvantageous.

Both partners need to be properly taught what it means for them, their children and their finances, and to realise its a financial negotiation, much like buying a house.

@easterbuns1

Plenty of couple have a discussion early on about what they want long term, such as marriage, but that doesn't always transpire as the years roll in. I didn't think I'd have two children and still remain unmarried but short of an ultimatum I can't actually force him to marry me, and I wouldn't want him to do it under duress anyways. I was told in the early days he did want to get married and had assumed when I fell pregnant the first time a ring and small wedding would soon follow. He knows my feelings but again I can't actually force him.

So why didn't you ask? Why did you give the baby his surname and then have yet another one when you wanted to be married with children? Sleepwalking into a situation you don't like is still a decision.

Hopefully we'll see the end of the term 'fall' pregnant, too, women don't fall pregnant, they become so and then chose to remain pregnant if that is their wish.

If kids before marriage was a dealbreaker you'd go belt and braces - the pill, IUD or implant plus condoms every single time.

Why be so passive about your own life?

You can ask to marry him, he says yes or not. Yes and you can marry quite cheaply.

Really hope you haven't compromised your earning potential and pension and made yourself financially reliant upon him.

@Aprilx @yoyo1234 sensible points out of interest how old were you when you got married and when did your partners propose? If you don't mind me asking

@StarsonaString that makes sense... I have read on here as well that higher earning women are advised to not marry as there's a high chance of partner cleaning them out in case of divorce. I suppose the same would apply to men, but equally the same laws offer protection for a woman who gives up her career to look after children

Also sorry that I can't reply to everyone but I value all of your opinions! I don't have many people wise in the ways of the world around me so i turn to mumsnet

@WhoStoleMyCheese. I married at 25 ( he was 23).

Partner proposed maybe year and half before wedding.

I agree with you. I'm also confused about the whole waiting for a proposal thing. We decided we would get married, its the biggest decision you will ever make together so probably worth some discussion. And in defense of Marriage I'm 20 years in and blissfully happy

What would happen if you accidentally fell pregnant during those 4 years OP? And your DP said yes we’ll definitely get married, I’m going to choose a ring and propose when you least expect it. Would you wait? Or would you say no, forget the ring, book the registry office? Because a lot of women want the romance so they wait. And they wait, and they get bigger and don’t want their wedding photos with an 8 month belly so they wait, then they focus on the child, then they move house and can’t afford the big wedding of their dreams, so they wait, and then 10 years down the line and 2 more kids, their DP fucks off and leaves for someone he marries in 6 months.

Blind optimism is the culprit here I think.

I bought a house with my partner before marrying but we married before having children. He cheated and left after 2 decades but I don't regret marrying him as it protected me financially. Would I ever marry again? Hell no - I don't intend to ever have kids again and no way am I risking my home, assets, pensions, savings etc. I'm not sure women are fully aware of the protection marriage affords you and I can see how they get stuck in the non marriage situation once kids have already arrived

Personally I would choose booking the date ASAP.

I got a lot of stick as a fourteen year old from fellow girls for thinking Romeo and Juliet was not in the least romantic - I thought they were a pair of idiot teenagers whose poor communication left a serious bodycount.

Seventeen years later, AIBU relationship issues leave me with the same feeling. How can you marry someone and not be able to have a straightforward conversation about this? Finances, childcare etc.

I think a lot of people with relationship issues simply have bought into the love conquers all myth and then romance bites the dust when practicalities raise their head. I think that being practical protects the romance.

DH and I have been together 14 years and we're still very romantic with each other, because we don't have any practical discontent to ruin it.

We had a frank conversation. So I was circa 27 when we got together and had a long term form of contraception that would run out when I was 30. After being together about six months when we had said I love you and established that we saw our future together, I said “my implant runs out on this date when I’ll be 30.... I’d like to try for a baby then and I’d like to be married at that point. What do you think?” My now husband said he would like to take part in both those things and surprised me soon after with a ring. We got married the next year and did indeed start trying for a baby when my implant reached the end of its life. However, so many of friends behave like that story is insanity and that you can’t tell a man what you want, that way madness lies. So either I’m unusual or I know a lot of people who are pretty bad at talking about things.

I was astonished when a SAHM friend tried to split with her DP recently and couldn't believe how little she would walk away with.

Another friend asked about "common law marriage". I couldn't believe that people still think this is a thing (I have a legal background so appreciate I may know more)! I had to say marriage (on the whole) protects women.

Reader, they stayed together.

Blind optimism is the culprit here I think.

Blind optimism, yes, but that doesn't happen in a vacuum: it happens due to a lack of education.

No reasonable parent would support their child in buying a property without talking the finances through, getting legal advice etc.

But parents are still so unwilling to talk to their children girl children in particular about what's at stake when they cohabit with a partner, have children and give up work.

Even when it comes to discussing marriage: everyone get so wrapped up in talking about things which don't matter: buying wedding hats and who's going to sit where. I find it absolutely maddening.

There's this wilful myopia about it on the part of the whole of society. I can't really work out whether this is misogyny, or romantic delusion or just a generation gap but it really needs to change.

I sort of agree OP but only where it is a boundary for one of you in the relationship. I have never understood wanting something that was important to you but not considering how to achieve it. For example not choosing a partner who wants marriage as well. I do think that its bizarre at least not to have an idea where your partner stands on these issues.

That said relationships are different and everyone has their own circumstances. In reverse my DP has wanted to get married for years. Primarily because have been married before I wasn't sure what I wanted. I had ended up out if a ten year marriage with two DC and felt very unsure.

As it happens DP decided he wanted to take the risk and that being with me was more important. It absolutely was not game playing . He knew the context and why. We discussed it regularly . I never hid my concern about remarrrying and that I genuinely did not know how I would feel about it ( of course I would have understood if he had walked away as a result but he didn't).

Years later he proposed and I have said yes. 5 years ago I couldn't have told you this would happen.

So it depends. I do feel that people can't really complain if this is really important to them and they don't discuss it. Surely you have an idea? I do raise my eyebrows when people have been told categorically their partner does not want to get married and they think they will change. I have very little sympathy for that.

@MarkRuffaloCrumble that's a good question.
If we decided to keep it- a big if - book the registry office ASAP.
The reason being by having a child that is half his we already have a bond. The time for romance is long gone.
If he was unclear or dithered about this I wouldn't keep the child.
And before anyone says that this is a rigid attitude, my attitude could change once I'm pregnant, I could marry and he could still fuck off or die etc and I'd still be a single mother, that is correct.
Nobody can predict the future... but why would i choose to make things difficult for myself? At least if I was married and any of the above things happened my child would be protected in both countries as a marriage certificate has a lot of power.

Shinyletsbebadguys

But there's a generational expectation gap at play here: bear in mind that as little as a generation ago it was seen as bad form for a woman to ask a man to marry him -- forward, possibly a bit needy and not the done thing.

I come from a relatively progressive group of friends but when I was in my 20s - 20 odd years ago -- marriage was still something people vaguely aspired to but it would have taken someone with balls to say to a bloke they were dating that they wanted to get married within a set timeframe.

A lot of women have been raised with a weird double standard; on the one hand you should aspire to be married but on the other you're not supposed to have agency here: which is partly why you get these endless posts about "he hasn't proposed and we have six kids" etc etc.

The idea that a woman takes control of this is relatively new. It's an entirely healthy development in my view but it isn't normalised yet.

@thepeopleversuswork

Shinyletsbebadguys

But there's a generational expectation gap at play here: bear in mind that as little as a generation ago it was seen as bad form for a woman to ask a man to marry him -- forward, possibly a bit needy and not the done thing.

I come from a relatively progressive group of friends but when I was in my 20s - 20 odd years ago -- marriage was still something people vaguely aspired to but it would have taken someone with balls to say to a bloke they were dating that they wanted to get married within a set timeframe.

A lot of women have been raised with a weird double standard; on the one hand you should aspire to be married but on the other you're not supposed to have agency here: which is partly why you get these endless posts about "he hasn't proposed and we have six kids" etc etc.

The idea that a woman takes control of this is relatively new. It's an entirely healthy development in my view but it isn't normalised yet.

I totally agree and I think it makes sense , as frustrating as it is , in some circumstances.

I do struggle with it still occurring within my own and subsequent generations though. Whilst I was raised somewhat traditionally I learnt the concept of agency in my early adulthood. Even allowing for different areas , educational opportunities it is frustrating to still see womens passivity in their own lives even now. I fully recognise that some is dependent on the message you have been sent as a young person but surely the advent if social media should offset it.

At the very least are we not moving to have a bigger voice in our own lives ? To have a conversation about boundaries even if someone chooses not to ask their partner to marry them surely some ownership is more normalised now? I suppose that's the crux , I do at 41 see it as normalised rather than in development but more and more it almost seems to have backslid.

The thing is, it's not just about individual decisions women make as adults, it's about their lives and opportunities leading to that point that they may, genuinely, be unaware that there are other options.

The relationship board on here is awash with women who are grateful that their husbands do laundry/wash up/bathe their own kids which suggests that the move towards equality of expectation between men and women is pretty slow.

There are so many women working full time hours and doing the majority of the child related jobs and household chores and men who are perfectly happy to maintain this status quo. Some of the most confident, competent women I know only discover that the previously 50/50 relationship that they had before children becomes massively one-sided once the kids are there, but by that time their focus and energy for a fight are lacking. It doesn't happen all at once - it's insidious and the men that don't take the initiative and take an active role in resolving inequalities often don't even realise that they are complicit.

Even things like a 5-year sentence for a man killing his wife sends a message to all women that they are not valued in society.

Everyone's attitudes are formed by the expectations they have experienced, so although I agree that women should have as much agency as men over their own lives, I do also believe that women aren't solely responsible for making that happen.

I dont know why it continues to be seen as the mans job to propose. Surely if someone feels they want to marry someone, they just ask them - whether they're male or female. I 'proposed' to my fiance because I wanted to marry him. We then started discussing venues and now we have have a date booked which we are both really looking forward to.

Sometimes I think it would have been nice if he'd asked me, but equally it was lovely asking him and seeing his reaction and I'm glad I did.

My DP wanted me to move in.
I said not without a ring and an intent to get married soon afterwards.

He proposed, we set a date and I moved in!

When DH and I got together marriage wasn’t much of a thing we were bothered about.

Then as time went on I did want to be married, he still didn’t. We were living together by this point. We had a number of serious chats about it (along with having kids etc) and eventually we were on totally different pages - I wanted to be married and start a family one day, he didn’t. So I left.

He proposed a week later 😂

Marriage became so important to me because

1. anyone could be his girlfriend, or my boyfriend, but I only wanted one husband - and I wanted that to be him. It fucked me off royally he didn’t see it that way.

2. I didn’t want a different surname to my kids. So if marriage was a no go, so was kids and see ya later - my body clock was dinging!

We’ve been married 5 years now, together 11, have one DC and another on the way - happier than we have ever been ❤️

He always says me walking out was the kick up the arse he needed 🙈

My mum was very opposed to living together when we were young. She used to say ‘Why would they buy the cow when they get the milk for free?’ which still makes me laugh now. But it sunk in because when dh (then dboyfriend) asked me to move in with him a few months after we got together, I told him that I wouldn’t live with him without being married. He proposed the following week. We actually moved in together 4 months before the wedding and have been together over 20 years now.

I have a relative (male) who didn’t want to marry. He was nearly 40 and decided that he wanted kids with his very long term girlfriend, who was also nearly 40. She point blank refused to have children unless they married. As she said, children are a bigger commitment than marriage, so if he wasn’t ready to marry her, then she certainly wasn’t prepared to have his children. They married that year, had first dc the following year, and are still happily married 15 years later. I can say with certainty that if she had given in and had children beforehand, they still wouldn’t be married now.

I’m a great believer in speaking up about the things you want and I can’t understand why it is so difficult for some people. If you want marriage, ask for it and don’t commit unless your partner is prepared to do the same.

I’m reading the posts about it being lack of education and wanting the romance etc etc - whole heartedly agree.

I actually had no idea what protection marriage offered me, so makes me doubly glad we’re married as I’m currently sacrificing my career to be sahm.

Also my DSil has been living with her DP for a few years now, no sign of engagement. She is desperate to get married - but refuses to ask him. She wants the proposal etc and her dad regularly says he wants to be asked first (just boak 🤢 don’t get me started on that one.). All very fantasy and romantic. I worry for her if they went ahead and had kids as he earns well and she’d likely become a sahm.