Not to understand why just one visitor is allowed in Care Homes if older people have been vaccinated?

[CatAndHisKit]

Is it purely because they only had one dose - which does protect from serious symptoms, or is it going to be the same after two doses?

What's the point of being vaccinated then, if they still need to shield?!
Also if the person visiting lives with their DC, they would all be carriers of virus if one of the hoiusehold infected, so why not allow the same household to visit?

people need to wake up.

Said no sane person ever.

@MrsTerryPratchett so what do you suggest going forwards? What’s the difference between one and two doses ... because for those care workers who say they can’t have a vaccine, the situation will be the same and quite honestly they will have to find a way to deal with it. You can’t keep hundreds of thousands of families apart for the sake of a handful of people. For those who refuse the vaccine, there should be no debate. If you won’t protect yourself then don’t expect me to want to protect you.

I would guess they are trying to prevent the virus spreading.

The more person to person contact there is, the more chance the virus has of spreading and mutating. The vaccine doesn't prevent people getting the virus and it is unknown if it stops them spreading it.

The more infected people there are (more politely referred to as 'cases' on the news) the more chance there is that the virus will encounter someone that will get very ill and die from it.
If they can keep the cases down, even in people that are unlikely to get very ill with it, they can bring deaths across all communities down.
Hence the 'we're not protected until we're all protected' idea. Why else would they be giving vaccines away to other countries? They're not exactly known for their humanitarian credentials.

@whatmakesmesad I'd do what they're doing. Staggered return to normal as vaccinations increase. After everyone who can and will have a vaccine does, I hope we will have reached solid herd immunity numbers, at which point you pays your money, you takes your chance.

Herd immunity protects those who can't have the vaccine. Those who won't, well, hopefully they learn.

I'm watching Israel like a hawk.

@SheilaWilcox I appreciate your effort but please understand this is far more complex than simply “I would guess they are trying to prevent the virus spreading”

For a start, visitors will:

1. Have a lateral flow test on arrival
2. Wear PPE
3. Probably be vaccinated themselves
4. In many cases be relatively isolated at home, not gallavantung round the community
5. Have been unable to connect with their loved ones for a YEAR. Please don’t forget that where residents have conditions like dementia, phone calls and FaceTime just aren’t possible. The only way to connect with them is to be there.

@MrsTerryPratchett I understand the process (it’s my job to) but if schools can go back with almost no one vaccinated, exposing every child, teacher abs their families to the virus, why on earth can we not have families together? Any impact would be infinitesimal in comparison, especially because the residents, those most vulnerable, will have had the vaccine

if schools can go back with almost no one vaccinated, exposing every child, teacher abs their families to the virus

Schools are a weird thing. Every other bloody country managed masks. Oddly the UK's children are incapable of wearing one and its 'child abuse'.

@MrsTerryPratchett I totally agree with you there. But you see my point - the anomaly is too great for families to passively accept after this long apart

They are trying to avoid another care home disaster but I think it's the wrong approach. The real risk to people in care homes are unvaccinated care home staff and their families who have close contact every day. I think there much more to be gained for these patients allowing them to see family.

I work in a care home for the elderly. Why does everyone assume that all residents are vaccinated, that they will all just passively accept it? Out of 20 residents 3 refused the vaccine outright, so its not just some care staff refusing it, and 2 residenrs couldn't have it. So thats 5 out of 20 unvaccinated. Only one staff member out of 50 declined, but that was because she is pregnant with complications and did so in the advice of her obstetrician.

It’s not an assumption though. I appreciate your experience is different but as posted above @moanyhole, according to the govt one third of staff have refused the vaccine. According to NCF data, 95% of care homes had vaccinated all residents (I can’t find one on proportion of people, not homes). In Scotland it’s 98% of residents.

Here is my issue with the business of "vaccine isn't 100% effective."

Of course it bloody well isn't. They aren't generally.

Is the bar for allowing people in care homes to be anything other than hostages actually making them 100% immune from covid? Or somehow saying old and frail people need a guarantee that they won't be killed by respiratory disease?

Well, that is never going to happen. Covid is a permanent thing, it is not going to be eradicated. Even if everyone is vaccinated and they keep closed borders. And elderly frail people are prone to dying of respiratory infections of all kinds.

Pople need to seriously rethink their expectations and what they are willing to give up, or tell other people to give up, in order to be "safe".

As for why health workers are vaccine hesitant - this is also true of many medical professionals like doctors. It's because they tend to be very aware of the problems that regularly come with new drugs even after extensive testing, and they know these have been rushed and that is not something that can just be glossed over as if it doesn't matter. Lots of doctors avoid new drugs if they can.

@SmokedDuck please can you outline what steps have been rushed or missed in the rollout of the covid vaccines?

Honestly, MN need to start deleting this rubbish it’s so dangerous.

I don’t have family in care homes (mine are abroad so probs won’t see them for another year) but honestly anyone who declines a vaccine who lives or works in a care home has zero right to expect ongoing visitor restrictions when they’re not prepared to help themselves.

I think you are misunderstanding, stelthbanna.

Even in normal drug testing, it's very common once drugs are rolled out that problems that were not identified before become evident. Often they don't mean the drug is no good at all, but sometimes they can be more serious.

You can't speed up the process and not have that be a potential factor because time passed is one element in unexpected effects being identified.

Doctors are more aware of this than a lot of people in the general public because any doctor in practice sees it in their work. New drugs come out and are promoted but don't entirely live up to expectations, and that can include side effects. So the tendency is to avoid newer drugs until they have been used for a time so long as there is an older drug that is performing well enough.

That caution isn't going to disappear when you have a drug that was developed quickly and put on the market more quickly than normal, it's going to be emphasised. Many will think it's worth the risk but others will judge not, especially if there are personal factors that might make them more cautious anyway.

You can say that's stupid all you like but it's not very plausible that so many health care workers who are generally pro-vaccination are unusually hesitant just for the heck of it.

You can say that's stupid all you like but it's not very plausible that so many health care workers who are generally pro-vaccination are unusually hesitant just for the heck of it.

Are that? The nurses I know are all happy to have it.

The government has banked heavily on the vaccine as a way of getting the country out of this pandemic. It isn't a silver bullet though. I think alot of people will be disappointed when they realise that people will still be dying from covid and/or restrictions will be needed in the future.

The government has oversold the vaccine, presumably to compensate for its pretty bad track record and failed to properly educate the population.

I think depends on the care home & their capability to deal with disease control. Visits are continuing in some homes on the judgement of the care manager.

Where my mother lives, if the home has a confirmed case, be it carer or resident, it no longer allows visitors. I saw her on 27/12/2020 then the place went into complete lockdown due positive cases amongst carers.

The home acts exactly the same way if there is an a outbreak of flu or norovirus - stopping the spread amongst residents, carers & guests.

Visits have been allowed again since the start of February, either through a window, inside with a sheet of Plexi glass between you or a socially distanced walk in the garden, with a carer pushing their wheelchair.
They allowed close visits last year with Lateral Flow Testing but stopped this when the entire area moved into Tier 4 before Xmas but socially distanced visits have continued.

Not all homes are barring visitors.

@Yogatomorrow

The government has banked heavily on the vaccine as a way of getting the country out of this pandemic. It isn't a silver bullet though. I think alot of people will be disappointed when they realise that people will still be dying from covid and/or restrictions will be needed in the future.

The government has oversold the vaccine, presumably to compensate for its pretty bad track record and failed to properly educate the population.

Yes agree with this.

The vaccines are fabulous - but not magic.

The government, especially Johnson, consistently over promise and under deliver, it is a deliberate strategy.

The science on covid has not changed.

@MrsTerryPratchett
Schools are a weird thing. Every other bloody country managed masks. Oddly the UK's children are incapable of wearing one and its 'child abuse'.
Bit like the fact that every other country has managed online learning and had schools closed to ALL children, but here children and parents can’t cope and “children are suffering”

@Sushirolls

I have refused it as it's not even a vaccine, it's still in trial until 2023 and is a gene therapy. I also have DM in a care home so I'm coming from both angles. She hasn't had it either.

The one person rule is idiotic.

Anyway, the government have no intention of relaxing things, even when people have had it, people need to wake up.

Pfizer is a gene therapy, astra zenica is a more traditional vaccine. Could you request the Oxford one

@moanyhole

I work in a care home for the elderly. Why does everyone assume that all residents are vaccinated, that they will all just passively accept it? Out of 20 residents 3 refused the vaccine outright, so its not just some care staff refusing it, and 2 residenrs couldn't have it. So thats 5 out of 20 unvaccinated. Only one staff member out of 50 declined, but that was because she is pregnant with complications and did so in the advice of her obstetrician.

So do you imagine there will be any point at which the vaccinated residents are allowed to see their vaccinated family, or do you think they will be locked down indefinitely to protect the people who refused/can’t have the vaccine?

Pfizer is a gene therapy, astra zenica is a more traditional vaccine. Could you request the Oxford one

The other way round. Pfizer is mRNA, which is not gene therapy. The AZ is a modified adenovirus, which is.

@SmokedDuck

I think you are misunderstanding, stelthbanna.

Even in normal drug testing, it's very common once drugs are rolled out that problems that were not identified before become evident. Often they don't mean the drug is no good at all, but sometimes they can be more serious.

You can't speed up the process and not have that be a potential factor because time passed is one element in unexpected effects being identified.

Doctors are more aware of this than a lot of people in the general public because any doctor in practice sees it in their work. New drugs come out and are promoted but don't entirely live up to expectations, and that can include side effects. So the tendency is to avoid newer drugs until they have been used for a time so long as there is an older drug that is performing well enough.

That caution isn't going to disappear when you have a drug that was developed quickly and put on the market more quickly than normal, it's going to be emphasised. Many will think it's worth the risk but others will judge not, especially if there are personal factors that might make them more cautious anyway.

You can say that's stupid all you like but it's not very plausible that so many health care workers who are generally pro-vaccination are unusually hesitant just for the heck of it.

But uptake of vaccine has been high in medical professionals no? ....is the conversation not about care home workers? ....while the job they do is very important ...they do not have the medical training that the people you are talking about have or have the insight in respect of drug use testing etc as say a doctor would ...yes they administer drugs and undertake nursing duties...but these would have been prescribed by a doctor

Bit like the fact that every other country has managed online learning and had schools closed to ALL children,

Every other country has closed schools to all children? Umm no.

*Visits have been allowed again since the start of February, either through a window, inside with a sheet of Plexi glass between you or a socially distanced walk in the garden, with a carer pushing their wheelchair.
They allowed close visits last year with Lateral Flow Testing but stopped this when the entire area moved into Tier 4 before Xmas but socially distanced visits have continued.

Not all homes are barring visitors*

This is not “visiting”, it’s utterly inhumane. Anyone who thinks it’s ok is wrong.