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To feel like the character of Jill in It's A Sin was really underdeveloped? ***Spoiler alert - added by MNHQ***

322 replies

Draineddraineddrained · 06/02/2021 10:42

Just binged this show with DP over last couple of evenings and LOVED it (heartbreaking though it was) - but this just got to me...

I mean I don't find it unrealistic that a (presumably?) straight girl would be best friends with a group of gay men and become a huge advocate for them and an AIDS activist - my mum did similar back in the 80s, and I wish like anything she was still alive because she would have thought this show was amazing.

But she was also a full human being with her own life, relationships (mostly dire), failings and priorities - whereas Jill just seems like a sort of motherly cipher, there to hold everyone else together without any normal human feelings beyond extreme empathy and compassion. She feels like a fantasy of what a woman should be to men - completely supportive, undemanding, cares more for them than they do for themselves.

The horrible scene in the last episode where Ritchie's mum rips into her for having no life of her own - it was horrible but I couldn't help but think she had s point and was hoping that some "real" Jill might emerge as a result of this challenge - but no, she just continued to live her life for Ritchie and the other men in the show, even finding strangers to devote her compassion to.

Anyone else just find it really disappointing? I mean the story (clearly) is about gay men and what they went through during the height of the aids crisis. And that is an important story told with beauty and sensitivity. But why include a female character in that, ostensibly as a lead character, just to utterly marginalise and charicature her?

YABU: Jill's a great character/she's not what matters in this show

YANBU: She should have been done right or not at all.

OP posts:
SarahAndQuack · 07/02/2021 11:57

@StillCoughingandLaughing

Exactly *@x2boys*. How often are gay characters purely the supportive best friend, or the witty sidekick? ‘It’s a Sin’ is one of the few dramas where gay men are front and centre stage. Let them have it for once - because it probably only will be once.
See, I know where you're coming from, and I absolutely agree it'd be good to have more dramas with non-hetero characters. But I find this 'let them have it for once' attitude weird. RTD has done several dramas about gay men and they're good. There are therefore more UK shows about and including gay men than lesbians; the two big recent shows about gay women I can think of are both US (the L word; Orange is the New Black). I wish there were someone like RTD patiently putting out shows about gay women, but I don't think there is.
B33Fr33 · 07/02/2021 12:12

Wasn't it about their core love or respect for others? Jill seemed to be without an agenda at first, friends, fun, youth and became a campaigner after experiencing such loss - she was indeed not looking for a cause, just going about life. The parents were all older, judgmental but expressing different values. The dad wanted his son to do well and probably be rich, usual 80s mindset but I guess had an epiphany that he loved his son. The mum seemed to feel betrayed that she thought she was close but really she never had been and she behaved appallingly. Rosco's dad had a proper moral awakening rather than the abusive shit he believed at first.

The women's roles did seem a bit two dimensional (like the resentful sister). It was a series not about women at all.

B33Fr33 · 07/02/2021 12:16

Unfortunately there were a lot of people who thought these men chose their life and 'just' needed a good woman. The Welsh mum seemed more sensitive but then maybe that's why her son was less opinionated, more "fitting in" they both quietly got on. Accepting, and caring. Heart breaking.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 07/02/2021 12:41

@StillCoughingandLaughing

Exactly *@x2boys*. How often are gay characters purely the supportive best friend, or the witty sidekick? ‘It’s a Sin’ is one of the few dramas where gay men are front and centre stage. Let them have it for once - because it probably only will be once.
Well said.
HeyDW96 · 07/02/2021 12:47

YANBU, amazing as it was I feel like she had no backbone whatsoever, I wanted to see a bit more fire from her, especially where Ritchie's mum was concerned.

StillCoughingandLaughing · 07/02/2021 13:46

See, I know where you're coming from, and I absolutely agree it'd be good to have more dramas with non-hetero characters. But I find this 'let them have it for once' attitude weird. RTD has done several dramas about gay men and they're good. There are therefore more UK shows about and including gay men than lesbians; the two big recent shows about gay women I can think of are both US (the L word; Orange is the New Black). I wish there were someone like RTD patiently putting out shows about gay women, but I don't think there is.

But this is the problem. One great drama about gay men that’s also a mainstream success rather than a cult hit, and before it’s even over on terrestrial TV people are shouting ‘But what about the lesbians?’ Why can’t ‘It’s a Sin’ be a drama written by, about and starring gay men, without having to be all things to all people?

You say Russell T Davies has written ‘several’ dramas about gay men. I can think of four in 20+ years - it’s hardly like you can’t move for them. Also, can you name any other gay dramatists who’ve had the same success?

If you choose to find my attitude ‘weird’, that’s up to you. But if you’re wondering why

StillCoughingandLaughing · 07/02/2021 13:49

Why they’re aren’t more great lesbian dramas, maybe it’s because people have the idea that a gay drama has to be held up to higher standards in terms of who it represents and how.

7Days · 07/02/2021 14:05

RTD puts gay characters into his dramas, just as everyday characters, like in Years and Years.
That's good and normal. There should be more of that. But then, if the story is not about relationships- I dunno, about a meteor striking the earth - how do you portray a gay character without making them a stereotype?

But this is a drama about a specific cohort in a certain situation. Of necessity it's about gay young men in the 80s. So it's a bit like that with Jill's character. She gets loads of airtime but it's not her story being told.

Maybe RTD could do a spin off concentrating on the women, particularly lesbians, and how they helped when there few else did. And their own struggles and feelings and grief about it.

Floisme · 07/02/2021 14:07

A drama about gay men is fine. For me the issue isn't leaving out Jill's story, it's about failing to bring her to life. If a writer can't manage to do that then I think it's better to leave the character out, or at least not to put her in so many scenes.

It's like RTD didn't really know her.

SarahAndQuack · 07/02/2021 14:08

I don't think anyone's 'shouting' anything. Confused

But saying 'let them have this for once' is weird. Why not say, let them have this and loads of others? Why not say, 'wow, C4, this was great, what else have you got in the pipeline that's similar?

It's as if people engaging with a programme is somehow bad, and we should all just silently turn away when we've finished watching it and accept there won't be any more.

SarahAndQuack · 07/02/2021 14:09

(And just personally, I wish someone who isn't RTD would write a spin-off about lesbians, or even just a story about lesbians in and of itself. I don't see why RTD has to be the One True Voice of all gays everywhere. There must be women writers in the industry who'd bite your hand off for a chance.)

7Days · 07/02/2021 14:10

Fair point Sarah

georgarina · 07/02/2021 14:21

Yeah I agree - this put into words what confused me a bit about the series (which I overall loved)

There's no back story with Jill - no context, no life story apart from her being the best friend, carer and ally to this group of men - and no independent life.

Even if the series isn't 'about' her she still could have been made into a 3-dimensional character.

AndreaMarteau · 07/02/2021 14:28

Why include Jill at all if it's just about gay men? Why give Jill all that screen time? She could just have been a supporting character like Sandra Bernhardt is in Pose.

I think, although it was a drama about gay men, it was also an homage to women like Jill at that time, who was also RTD's friend. But in making her out to be practically a saint and basically a handmaiden, he did her a real disservice. Even when she got het up (ever so slightly, mind) about the boys for sleeping around without using protection, she couldn't really follow her point through even though she was dealing with the realities of the consequences of HIV at that stage. Is anyone really like that in real life? All she seemed to do was smile and nod at at it all.

IrenetheQuaint · 07/02/2021 14:33

@SarahAndQuack

(And just personally, I wish someone who isn't RTD would write a spin-off about lesbians, or even just a story about lesbians in and of itself. I don't see why RTD has to be the One True Voice of all gays everywhere. There must be women writers in the industry who'd bite your hand off for a chance.)
Yes! Perhaps with a central male character who is apparently asexual and devotes his life to serving the lesbians' emotional and physical needs Grin
StillCoughingandLaughing · 07/02/2021 14:35

@SarahAndQuack

I don't think anyone's 'shouting' anything. Confused

But saying 'let them have this for once' is weird. Why not say, let them have this and loads of others? Why not say, 'wow, C4, this was great, what else have you got in the pipeline that's similar?

It's as if people engaging with a programme is somehow bad, and we should all just silently turn away when we've finished watching it and accept there won't be any more.

It’s not like that at all; you’re completely misrepresenting what I said. Of course I’m not saying ‘for once’ as in ‘for once and forever; never again’. I’m saying BECAUSE these dramas are so rare, don’t pull the one example to bits by criticising how women are portrayed, asking where the lesbian characters are etc.
SarahAndQuack · 07/02/2021 14:36

Grin at @IrenetheQuaint. I love that idea!

SarahAndQuack · 07/02/2021 14:37

But that's the point, @StillCoughingandLaughing.

You're saying don't engage, don't talk about how it could have been better or longer or more interesting.

That's only going to lead to no more programmes of this kind, isn't it?

The sign of a successful drama is that people are talking about it, disagreeing, getting involved. I don't know why you want to shut that down.

SarahAndQuack · 07/02/2021 14:38

And also ... why do you feel you have the authority to insist other people can't hold different views? Why shouldn't we say so if we didn't like how Jill was done?

Parkperson · 07/02/2021 14:42

I agree with you @StillCoughingandLaughing. Some posters are deliberately chasing away posters who disagree with them.

x2boys · 07/02/2021 14:46

Didn't they include Jill because the real Jill devoted. Herself to helping her friends finding out information at first and then looking after them as they got sick ? Seeing as she had a part in the drama maybe that is how she wished to be portrayed,I know it's fictional but it was based in RTD experience,s and people he knew and the drama spanned ten years Jill was still only on her late 20,s early 30,s at the end of it,maybe Jill wasent really involved with anyone serious during her 20,s and didn't want to be seen having flings ,one night stand,s etc ?

StillCoughingandLaughing · 07/02/2021 14:49

@SarahAndQuack

And also ... why do you feel you have the authority to insist other people can't hold different views? Why shouldn't we say so if we didn't like how Jill was done?
I don’t have the ‘authority’. Any more than you have the authority to claim a drama primarily about gay men is flawed because it doesn’t focus enough on straight women or lesbians.
SarahAndQuack · 07/02/2021 14:54

But I am not trying to close down the debate. I'm fine with the fact you disagree with me; I'm just interested in having the discussion. Whereas it seems to me you're trying to get people to stop talking about it at all, and see it as somehow wrong or disrespectful.

I think on the whole I agree that if RTD hadn't included Jill as such a major role it would have been fine. I just think giving her such a lot of screen time but not much character didn't quite work.

I find it very plausible that, as @x2boys says, this happened because it's hard to write about real people if those people mightn't want details of their lives included. It's just it didn't, in my view, make for great TV (in that aspect of the show; I loved the rest so I'm not negative about it at all).

SarahAndQuack · 07/02/2021 14:56

And, really seriously, us having this debate is one tiny tiny part of what convinces C4 to commission more gay dramas, so it is a good thing.

JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil · 07/02/2021 15:14

I think it’s great this debate is being had because it shows just how many more shows like this we need. The reason why we’re debating Jill and whether she should have more to her or whether it should just be about the guys is because there’s not enough of either demographic where they are the protagonists (or other minorities) in mainstream dramas.