Retrain as a doctor advice

[ELK1234]

Hi

I am in my thirties and trying to get pregnant currently. However thinking of doing graduate entry medicine. I am a pharmacist myself and have worked in hospitals and gp surgerys so have a good idea of career. I applied 5 years ago and didn't get in so decided to focus o. Being good and happy in my career but I still get this wanting to do medicine.

There is a new course for healthcare professionals and so I would be able to work for 3 years part time then 2 years full-time. I have a very supportive husband.
I can't apply till I am 35 as have to have lived in scotland for 2 years.

I think i can get through the degree although am sure it's hard. However I am really worried about doing foundation years and balancing it with kids. If life goes. To plan hopefully will have one or 2 then

I am likely gone be 40 when graduate.

Is there anyone here that has done it? And can provide advice? Or any current doctor mums?.

I think i am aware how hard foundation years are as have spent lots of my career on wards!

Thankyou

What don’t you get out of pharmacy that you’ll think you’ll get out of medicine?

[quote frenchtoastie123]@sammylady37

:) I've now had to put my hand in every bodily orifice...Trust me, the mouth is not that bad![/quote]
I’m a doctor too so I’ve encountered each and all body orifices but the mouth is the one I could never tolerate!

We had an FY1 a few yrs ago who did medicine at 28 as a single mum of two. She had never studied either (had been to college to get into med school) and was an absolute inspiration (also fab FY1). I do remember thinking how hard she worked though and what an exceptional person she must be to do what she did. I found my junior doctor years really tough and I didn’t have kids until I was settled in a reg job with no out of hours. Trying to do my exit exam with two young kids was so hard - I felt like my career affected all of our lives and although my husband was supportive it took a long time for our relationship to recover from the demands of my training.

My husband is now training LTFT which is fine except it exponentially extends training so he’s got five yrs of crappy on calls and shitty rotations rather than three for his higher specialist training.

I absolutely love my job now but as a pregnant 40 yr old I don’t think I could cope with a busy medical specialty where I was doing on call and out of hours. I’m a consultant in a pretty laid back speciality and I’m still struggling.

So I guess I’m saying - yes it can be done but I think you would have to really really want it.

Join tea and empathy Facebook group and ask there! Also lots of grad medics with kids who could direct you to good resources.

I’m a doctor now but went to uni back when I was 19. I’ve worked with plenty of graduate medics though.

GP a better bet. Less competitive so less likely to need to move if you don’t score highly (unless you want London). Also it’s 2 years foundation. 1.5 years hospital then 1.5 years GP which is 9-5.

Umm.. gp is not 9-5... our gp foundation doctors usually work 8.30 - 6 ish. I work 7am to 9pm plus travel. I do work part time but my days are VERY long. We can't get childcare that covers it...my brother a hospital consultant yes does on call but his working day is 8-5 .30nunless ops run over or he is on call. They have actually found childcare easier...

Also the gp training scheme doctors can have long commutes if placed on the area periphery and covers rural areas. Ours lives 1.5 hours away. Not to say don't do it but don't go into it assuming GP is as family friendly as people make out. I would also say that you can't give everything to all parts of your life. This is true for all working mums but in medicine it will be your family that gets the poorer deal, and will come second as the clinical consequences of not prioritising the mental load of the job are too great.

Op, out of interest what is the course you're considering?

OP feel free to PM me. I'm 26 and have a 2 year old. Both me and my partner are studying graduate medicine. Happy to be a sounding board for your thoughts and concerns.

Ohhhhh it was all going so well until the suggestion of GP and palliative care being either lesser or easier options.🤣

OP, I say this as a doctor with a family - there are absolutely no easy options in medicine, especially at the moment - it’s a career that can very easily chew you up and spit you out if you let it, especially if you try to combine training with family life.

Bear in mind that while you may graduate by 40, you’ve could be another 10 years + before qualifying, even as a GP with its shorter (but no easier) training period, depending on your chosen path and if you work LTFT. Palliative care is highly competitive and requires a great deal of prior general medical experience before you can sub-specialise (though there is more than one route through).

It’s also utterly thankless and demoralising at times and the system is not set up to protect you from litigation, or with appropriate and functional whistleblowing structures in place, as there have been several recent legal cases to demonstrate. Remuneration is also nowhere near as good as the public seem to imagine, again, particularly LTFT.

You already have a healthcare career in which you can progress and make a really positive contribution to the lives of others. I would think twice before giving this up.

I haven't read all your replies so sorry if this is repetitive.

I have had some involvement with development of SCOTGEM (which is the new graduate entry course I presume you're looking at). Certainly it's built around being more flexible and the expectation is that students may well have families.

Personally I waited til I was at a late stage of my training before having kids. People talk a lot about the misery of the foundation years but actually I think the hardest stage to have young children would be the mid core training time. You're less protected than in foundation, loads of shifts (unless you do something like histopath) and you're also more senior so have to look after your juniors. As a CT3 in psychiatry I often sent my FY home and stayed to sort stuff out. As a v senior trainee / consultant you do have more flexibility with your hours. I'm a consultant with a 2 year old now and it's ok.

That said, if you're looking at completing your family while at medical school you could end up doing foundation with slightly older kids.

I would definitely recommend LTFT if you can afford it. I'm LTFT at 80% which works out as about 38hrs a week including active on call time. It's good. Scotland is still on the old junior doctor contract so the T&C for LTFT are better.

You do need to make sure you have robust childcare arrangements. For us in lockdown it has really exposed how fragile our support network is - I'd usually rely on elderly parents o the other side of the country. Partner is a surgeon so there's been no home working for us. So we were reliant on nursery which has been ok but with some stressful moments. I have been very grateful to fellow HCP neighbours who get it and have taken the wee one in a pinch.

Overall I'd say it can be done, especially the uni side of it, but you need to plan meticulously for when they're older and you're working. You also need to think about how you'll study for exams (inc postgraduate exams) with kids at home. Not impossible but will be more challenging.

I'm a hospital doctor with young kids and I don't think that you should do it. You're already a pharmacist- you could grow your role there into something with more patient contact if that's what you enjoy.
What is it in particular that pharmacy lacks that you want from medicine?

@PenguinWings makes a good point. What does pharmacy lack? Is it about patient contact / continuity and decision making?
The pharmacist I work with is a core MDT member and spends a lot of time with patients discussing treatment options. We work with longer stay mental health rehabilitation patients. I really value her advice. Many pharmacists are also prescribers. You're likely to be able to advance your career faster too. My colleague is the lead in a service development role at band 8A which is just under 50k on agenda for change. You would be well into your higher training full time before you were looking at that kind of wage.

Maybe worth looking into options for your current career to fill the gaps you're lacking.

@Medstudent12 Sorry, but I don't think that is a very accurate description of General Practice. Core hours are 8am to 6.30pm, and many GPs end up effectively working 12-hour days. Because of the long days, childcare is very difficult, and often expensive (many GPs end up using a nanny). You can certainly find ways to work family friendly hours post-CCT (e.g. by working 5 sessions a week, all mornings; looking at the retainer scheme; or taking a salaried post with a specific job plan), but it's not accurate to suggest that GP is always family friendly.

Although it's less competitive than some other specialties, in many parts of the country, there are more applicants than places. I work somewhere a long way from London and my local VTS has a 100% fill rate!

The GP training scheme is changing, and is moving towards 1 year in hospital and 2 years in GP.

Hi,

Thankyou for all the really useful replies.
My interest in palliative care comes from having shadowed these ward rounds and worked with this team and being in awe of the doctors and nurses on that team. I don't see it as an easy speciality just one I would be proud to work in (pharmacists exist in this area too but I find less patient facing) .I also think GPS are amazing and have seen how much they need to know.I also have thought about nursing as well as there are some great advanced nursing roles. Pharmacy does have lots to offer that is why I have stuck with it so far. I just find we are often on the sidelines checking the doctors work, producing guidelines, I have worked with some doctors where I don't feel appreciated but others who are amazing and if it could be like that all the time I would probably enjoy the job alot more. I love talking to patients and working in healthcare, I am very interested in the clinical aspect and diagnostic side of things. I am less interested in some of the technical sides that comes with pharmacy but it is a very valuable job.

Thankyou anyway, I probably won't post anymore because you have given me more than enough ideas and motivation. I agree looking at how to develop myself more as a pharmacist is another option.

Thankyou again for all the great ideas and also sense of realism. I guess it is a question of how much you want it!

Welldone to all the medic healthcare professionals already doing it

@StoneColdBitch and @Didiplanthis I meant no disrespect to GP.

But I don’t think you can argue the commute is worse. My friends on GP training are within a reasonable area (it’s the only specialty that actually is and this at times makes me tempted to jump ship to GP). I have friends on medical training who are based in Cheshire but can get given a Reg year in the Lake District...

Also I think the key thing is you won’t need childcare for nights and weekends (harder to come by and more expensive) after the initial hospital rotations.

If you are LTFT in a hospital based specialty at 60% that could easily take 12 years post F2 depending on specialty so might be a tough idea for someone who already has kids.

No career as a doctor is family friendly (except maybe radiology? Histopath?) but if you’re gonna be a Reg for years in an acute specialty then you could be moved potentially 100+ miles for a Reg job in same deanery and move yearly.

I think it’s still tough but more doable as you effectively CCT earlier and a salaried Or locum GP has more say over their working hours than a med Reg on call.

How women with children do specialties such as surgery, well I am in awe!

I’ve ruled out surgery, ICU and paediatrics because the Reg and consultant jobs are too out of hours based or you are expected to do too much (publications, phd etc) to get a job.

I know GPs who are also palliative care specialist doctors working in hospice and/or hospitals in palliative care. Might be a more manageable way.

I also know someone who’s training in a hospital specialty with two tiny kids but she’s moving her family across the country for the job and it’s not a specialty that you need to be med Reg for.

In summary no career as a doctor is family friendly! Sadly. So it’s up to OP to decide if it’s worth it or she can get the same job satisfaction as part of a pharmacy role.

I’ve met a lot a lot of GP trainees who did something else first (ED, orthopaedics, neurosurgery, medicine) and then decided it just wasn’t worth the sacrifice. They all seem really happy. I won’t be surprised if I decide it’s for me too, I’m not sure I want to be coming in to hospital at 4am when I’m 50 tbh. But GPs seem more and more stretched each year. There’s so easy win.

I did a hospice job and we had a very senior pharmacist who was excellent. Could you become a palliative pharmacist?

I personally would do dentistry over medicine. I work in a dental hospital and we have a couple of people actually switching from being a doctor to a dentist. The hours are 10000x better, the pay is better and the training is shorter. My husbands a dentist and his sisters a doctor and he's deff got the better job. But it comes down to what you enjoy

I am not sure what role you had in primary care, but I'm a pharmacist working for a PCN. I have a lot of direct patient contact, well by phone at the moment, and as a Prescriber I am able to make my own decisions about patient care. Very little of my time is spent checking Drs prescriptions, a big change after 20 years as a hospital pharmacist.
I shadowed other primary care pharmacist as part of the prescribing course and they assessing patients including carrying out physical examination as well as prescribing. So it maybe worth looking at prescribing if you haven't already working to becoming an advanced practitioner.

My brother retrained after qualifying in another profession, has just reached consultant surgeon level - and resigned. He says that he does not want to work for an organisation which does not allow safe working practices (this was his view before the pandemic hit) due to not enough staff - he regularly works 1-2 hours over his shift to get through patients, and says operating levels are often 'unsafe'. I was shocked at how little he earns too, given the YEARS it has taken him to get to this point, the hours and the responsibility. He advised me against letting any of my children become doctors now :-(. He goes out to work as a surgeon in the southern hemisphere in a couple of weeks time....

I think alot will depend on how supportive and 'present' your partner can be Medstudent 12 made good points about childcare (and the commute GP trainee commutes can be long but don't usually require relocation !) My consultant surgeon brother finds childcare easier than me as a gp, as his wife can cover overnights and weekends. Although they both work till 6 pm ish on other nights this is covered by 'normal' childcare hours. We struggle as both GPS working till 8-9 pm so although not nights is outside usual childcare hours. This is made MUCH worse by living and working rurally as our childcare options are much more limited.. this is worth considering. If you have a supportive partner who can and will step up and can source good flexible childcare than things will be much more doable. I'm less tired today.. there are many many bad things about the job that I truly hate, it has broken and changed me, I probably wouldn't do it again if I had my time over BUT sometimes it is a privilege and a joy and it makes me complete in way nothing else can or ever will.