Page 3 | . . . to be absolutely furious at what work have done to me?

Idontgiveagriffindamn · 04/02/2021 07:36

@MilkshakeandChips5

Be cautious as there is some opinion here that is not quite accurate depending on your own contract / terms and conditions. As unfair as it may seem, pay grade / the right to annual salary reviews may not be contractual depending on other elements of the change. This is a complex area of case law so would advise reaching out to ACAS as a first step. I hope everything works out for you!

This has summed up what I was trying to work out how to articulate. For some companies the pay band structure is rigid and fairly set it stone (nhs) for others it’s an internal concept that can quite easily be changed. Therefore pay and pay bands can quite often be very different things.

AlwaysCheddar · 04/02/2021 07:46

Speak to Acas ASAP.

OllyBJolly · 04/02/2021 07:55

Pretty sure I’ve read this exact post before

Deja Vu

Probably because it happens so often! So many employers - particularly smaller ones - aren't fully aware of maternity rights and don't take proper advice.

Having said that, other than poor communication, there might not be any recourse here. The company has restructured the roles. The OP is on same pay. The pay grade system they use might not be "formal". It may well be that the company can argue that it is the same job, but with different responsibilities due to business needs. I guess a key factor will be if other jobs have undergone a similar reallocation of responsibilities under restructure or just the OP's.

GreenlandTheMovie · 04/02/2021 08:09

It's more than breach of contract (any accepted unilateral change) and less than pregnancy related discrimination. At least I think discrimination would be difficult to price as it was part of a redundancy in which the other non pregnant manager was made redundant.

It's almost fraud on the part of your employer, because of the deliberate mis-statement of your boss (for whom they are vicariously liable) - they have obtained (additional) services by deception. Would you have taken on the additional work/responsibilities if you had been told you were being demoted? Positioning on a pay scale is a term of employment. Variation of contract terms needs to be communicated clearly, preferably in writing. There actually seems to have been a deliberate attempt on the part of the employer to mislead you.

What can you do about it? You have not accepted the change, so I think technically you are entitled to any financial loss that would have accrued. If there is none, youre kind of left without a remedy, as it seems that re-engagement to your original role might not be possible here.

Lurkingforawhile · 04/02/2021 08:10

A similar type of grade restructuring happened to my relative. They kept their old bonus structure as refused to agree to the bonus changes. It was a bit of a pain as they had to remind HR / payroll but it was enough to be worth fighting for. Lots of people in companies are on legacy arrangements (even in my public sector organisation) so that's what they need to do. Poor show from your manager who clearly new it was wrong so didn't want to have the conversation.

Lurkingforawhile · 04/02/2021 08:10

knew!

maddening · 04/02/2021 08:16

But her access to pay rise and bonus are impacted so therefore "terms and conditions" are. Impacted surely?

VodselForDinner · 04/02/2021 08:21

You really should start another thread in the Employment forum as you’ve received a lot of inaccurate and incorrect information here.

As others have said, grading is very rarely a contractual provision.

My advice would be to review all the documentation you have and see if, at any stage, they used terms like “red circle” or “no less favourable terms”.

Also, were you informed of how you and the other manager were both designated to this role- was it a mapping process? Were you given scores from this exercise? How accurately does your old job description match up to the new one?

It may be that the company have done nothing illegal here, albeit their communication leaves a lot to be desired. But, before you lawyer up, go through any and all correspondence with a fine tooth comb.

VodselForDinner · 04/02/2021 08:24

What can you do about it? You have not accepted the change

Taking on assigned duties is considered an acceptance of the terms. Plus, she signed a new contract.

You really need a new thread, OP.

Brefugee · 04/02/2021 08:30

I think there are 2 separate issues here and agree that one of them would be better in the employment issues part.

The second is the relationship with the manager, which from the OP seems to have been good, because not telling you this huge thing (and dropping a grade, regardless of job title is always a huge thing when it hits you) while you were off and had time to change your mind about going back or looking for a new job. In your shoes, OP, it would niggle at me that there may be other things that you should know?

In any case, since you have a manager I'd go to them and ask what you should prioritise in your 8 hours a day, and what can be redistributed or dropped.

And join a union.

LannieDuck · 04/02/2021 08:33

I would definitely have an initial discussion with an employment lawyer, to understand whether they've breeched any equality laws. The advice you get on here will be very patchy.

Belinda554 · 04/02/2021 08:37

Have a good luck at how much you will be entitled to from an ACAS dispute. It’s capped.

I would just push back on the extra responsibility and look for another job.

This is from experience of going to tribunal via ACAS. ( I won, but it’s very stressful and unless it’s discrimination, it’s probably not financially worth while)

Eeeeeeeeeeeek · 04/02/2021 08:49

The only thing I can say is keep an accurate diary of events and who said what, word for word, do not generalise and always remember that HR work for your employers, so not necessarily for your best interest

Arobase · 04/02/2021 09:05

Taking on assigned duties is considered an acceptance of the terms. Plus, she signed a new contract.

Where does it say she signed a new contract?

OP has something in writing saying the new role was on the same terms and conditions. She took on the assigned duties on that basis. She can't be held to have accepted terms that weren't notified to her.

However, now she does know, she needs to make it crystal clear that she does not accept the terms and should take legal advice on that.

Seapoint2002 · 04/02/2021 09:13

If you involve solicitors and take them to employment tribunal i would say that will mean you have to leave the company. You might get a payout and make it clear to them that they did something wrong, but it still means you will likely have to leave and find a new job. Start looking now i would.

NameChange2PostThis · 04/02/2021 09:57

@MilkshakeandChips5

Be cautious as there is some opinion here that is not quite accurate depending on your own contract / terms and conditions. As unfair as it may seem, pay grade / the right to annual salary reviews may not be contractual depending on other elements of the change. This is a complex area of case law so would advise reaching out to ACAS as a first step. I hope everything works out for you!

Sorry this is happening to you @CanTheyDoThisToMe but the above poster is correct. There is a lot of bogus advice on this thread.

Check your actual contract. I suspect there is no stipulation that you are on a particular pay band. Also if the grading system has changed, then they could potentially argue your new grade is equivalent to your old grade.
IANAL. This is a complex area of law - you need a good specialist employment discrimination lawyer to review all your documentation to identify IF you have a case. Unless there is a time limit, don't raise a grievance until/unless you know where you stand legally.

It sucks. It’s not fair. I hope you have a case. Good luck

timeisnotaline · 04/02/2021 10:02

@VodselForDinner

What can you do about it? You have not accepted the change

Taking on assigned duties is considered an acceptance of the terms. Plus, she signed a new contract.

You really need a new thread, OP.

Taking on assigned duties having been notified in writing that terms and conditions of her new role are same as her old is acceptance of being paid as expected. Instead, they have downgraded her. There is no action here that can be construed legally as acceptance on the part of the op!

VodselForDinner · 04/02/2021 10:23

Taking on assigned duties having been notified in writing that terms and conditions of her new role are same as her old is acceptance of being paid as expected. Instead, they have downgraded her. There is no action here that can be construed legally as acceptance on the part of the op!

That depends entirely on whether her grade and associated pay progression process are contractually protected. In most cases, they are not. OP is unlikely to see “you are an X grade and will be entitled to annual pay increases of Y% per annum” is stated anywhere in her employment contract.

Currently, she is being paid as expected. She’s getting paid the same amount as she always was, for doing her job. She’s taken on the new duties of that job.

They have not downgraded “her”, they have downgraded the role. OP is still getting paid as much as she was before, and hasn’t indicated that any of her contractual benefits have been impacted.

Her concern is around access to pay progression given she’s now restricted by the top of the scale compared to her current salary. That’s a very valid concern that she needs her employer to address.

GreenlandTheMovie · 04/02/2021 10:27

VodselForDinner They have not downgraded “her”, they have downgraded the role. OP is still getting paid as much as she was before, and hasn’t indicated that any of her contractual benefits have been impacted.

Its worth checking the case law on whether a progression on a pay band/scale can be regarded as a contractual term and/or benefit, but I see no reason why it should be.

I agree that the OP has not accepted the new terms by implication. She has been misled by a representative of the company and that can never constitute implied acceptance unless there is outstanding evidence to the contrary.

I don't think the misleading statements of the boss should be under-estimated. That really is extremely serious. Whether it constitutes a quantifiable pecuniary loss is a different matter, but the company are on shaky ground.

GreenlandTheMovie · 04/02/2021 10:29

That depends entirely on whether her grade and associated pay progression process are contractually protected. In most cases, they are not. OP is unlikely to see “you are an X grade and will be entitled to annual pay increases of Y% per annum” is stated anywhere in her employment contract.

Oh and since there is no legal requirement for a British employee to have an employment contract, the written terms of the contract are not necessarily final. The contract can also be constituted by additional communications, including in writing, by electronic means and verbally.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 04/02/2021 10:29

Good luck, OP.

daisychain01 · 04/02/2021 10:31

Reduction in status while on mat leave is an extremely serious matter because it not only affects the employee's pay and remuneration but also their actual and perceived seniority and authority amongst peers and seniors.

The damage done isn't easy to rectify if the employer isn't willing to accept they've done anything wrong.

GwendolineWindowlene · 04/02/2021 10:32

I think it's this thread that posters are being reminded of.

daisychain01 · 04/02/2021 10:39

Unless there is a time limit, don't raise a grievance until/unless you know where you stand legally.

If the OP wishes to pursue a Tribunal Case, there is a 3 month timeframe to lodge their case. Why wouldn't they raise a grievance about it, now, as they clearly have very strong views to say the are absolutely furious". Given timeframes involved in going through an internal grievance process, and the requirement to have escalated the matter internally first, before taking to ET, they absolutely need to formalise this to ensure they don't miss the deadline.

Another risk: If they let it continue without formalising concerns, it could be argued by the employer that they carried on working and by implication they accepted the change. That isn't the case, the OP does not agree with the change, and should not have had it inflicted on them without any prior consultation and advanced notice.

Dogonahottinroof · 04/02/2021 10:46

@CanTheyDoThisToMe

Or should I "suck it up" as I was told by a senior colleague this morning?

I was on maternity leave during 2020. My company had a restructure and they reduced two manager roles (one was mine) down to one role. When speaking about the new role during the consultation period, my boss said the new role was the same grade/level as my old role. As the other manager chose to leave, I was given the role by default, and received a letter confirming my title change and stating that terms and conditions would be the same.

Fast forward a few months and I'm back from maternity leave, working hard to cover both teams, stressed at the additional responsibility. And now I find out by accident (noticed it on the HR system) that my grade is one lower than it used to be. It's not a mistake, when asked, my boss just said he wanted to tell me that the role had been demoted when we were 'back in the office' rather than when I was on maternity leave.

I'm furious. Not only have I got twice the responsibility for zero reward, but I will now no longer be eligible for annual payrises because I'm at the top of the lower grade payband, and my bonus will correspondingly be less too.

Not to mention that it's insulting to be demoted but given so much more work.

What should I do? I'm so angry. I've raised a complaint but they've said the decision stands.

have you posted about this before?