Expectations from Architect

[JimandPam]

Hi all

I am committing the ultimate sin by using AIBU for traffic.

I wanted to get a sense of whether I have an unreasonable expectation from an architect we are using...

Background
Small extension at the back of the house.
We gave a clear budget excl VAT but expected to include all finishings save the painting and decorating.
We decided to use an architect rather than builder as we had vastly different quotes from builders on what was possible as we have an unusual back of the house and decided to go with an architect firm who will consult with a structural engineer. We can then take these plans to builders. IMPORTANT: the architect firm also do the builds too where they are instructed to.

The process we were told is that they would show us a few options of what we could do with the space including estimates and headline costs. We then decide what we like, they draw up the plans and submit them to the council for approval and then give us an itemised quote for the build should we decide to use them.

We met with the architect this week who showed us several versions of what it could look like with some great ideas. Very pleased.
But when it came to estimates, he has used an online app, plugged in the square foot of extension and given us a 'top' estimate and 'bottom' estimate.

Both of these are way over our budget and don't even include finishings. It hasn't been broken down by element so he can't tell us what is included in the bottom and top quotes. Example, he showed us an idea for a quirky shape to the extension which would add a real wow factor. But couldn't tell us which estimate it was in or how much it would cost vs regular shape. We also enquired about some interesting glazing options but these also had no prices and he suggested we contact the manufacturer for more information

In short (and I realise this is long), I don't know how we can get down to a finalised plan to submit to planning without having more details on the costs. I get that the itemised costs will come later but we are in danger of submitted plans for an extension that could be at the top end of the estimates (which was also nearly 3 times our budget) and then not be able to afford to build it. His response that we only needed to start digging the foundations to qualify as having 'started' the build and meet the timelines for which you need to execute the plans you submit. And then we could save up for the rest(!) Not sure what the point was in giving him a budget then!

We've not done this before...is this normal? Should an architect at the 'ideas' stage have a more thorough grasp of costings? He's followed up and asked which ideas we wanted to take forwards and the answer is all of them: but I'm certain that will blow out budget and I don't know how to pick what we like without knowing the costs.

Anyone else been through this and should we have been more specific of expectations up front? We chose them as they had a good reputation and, what seemed like, a robust process. But we've paid up front and I'm not sure we're getting value from them.

It sounds like you have an unrealistic expectation of how far your budget is going to go. If the bottom estimate is way above your max budget, it doesn't sound like there's much room for cutting costs, particularly if it's going to be a difficult build. I don't really see how this is the architect's fault.

Architects are also not good at costs anyway. They're designers. You need a quantity surveyor to cost designs.

It really depends on what basis you appointed him. If it was only for inception ideas /rough plans you will get a range of costs. If it was for developing working drawings he will be able to price more accurately. They usually use the BCIS costs for generic building costs per m2.

You shouldn't need a QS for a domestic extension, an architect will do that, but needs to know more details of spec.

Architects are really the worst of the worst in my experience. I remember we were having an extension done in the 90s and the architect rang one Sunday morning asking to come round for something important.

I remember at the time saying he probably just wants a pre-lunch gin and tonic. The 'important' thing transpired to be would it be better to have a tap in the conservatory or the courtyard? After a few Gs and Ts we settled on both.

I remembered this a few years later and reminded DH. We had a good laugh about it because as we sat in the finished project we had zero taps in the conservatory and zero in the courtyard!

I agree with the PP about you possibly having unrealistic expectations. The red flags in your post for me are “unusual shape” and “interesting glazing options” - both of these read as expensive.

If you want a bog standard extension it’ll be your bottom estimate, anything unusual or interesting will be too estimate and probably then some on top.

I also think you’ve used the architect in slightly the wrong way, in my experience they are better at doing what they are told to do Once you’ve decided with them adding a few tweaks rather than generating ideas from scratch.

Might be time for you to make some decision then re-consult so they can give you a clearer idea of costs.

When we got our extension done we got an architect to draw up the design (it wasn't anything fancy, basically a box on the back of our house to move the kitchen) and then they organised some local firms to quote for it. That gave us an idea of costs (and how much of a hike in price it is living in our town compared to the in-laws neighbours).

As with anything, you can do it right/fancy or you can do it cheap.

If it's a small cheap rear extension why do you need an architect?!

We’re currently having an extension built at the moment.
We had an idea of what we wanted, got an architect in to discuss if this was possible and took any of their suggestions. Once we had the architects drawings we then Spoke to builders who could give us more accurate quotes (some of which were more than double the lowest price) then, Applied for planning permission.

That way we knew if it was something we could or could not afford.
Once we had planning permission we got going.

This sounds familiar. The first major work we had on a house (nearly 20 years ago) was planned with an architect. I think we had a £40k budget. Architect drew up amazing plans. Went to builders for costings. Lowest was about £60k, highest was nearly £100k!

Ended up having a smaller project done, although the architect seemed a bit put out that we wouldn’t be able to suddenly add 50% to the budget. I think the architect’s fee was 5% (maybe 10%) of build cost.

Next time (different house), we just had a full width extension, no architect. A few hundred quid to get plans drawn up. It certainly wasn’t architecturally ambitious but suited what we needed at the time.

Architects in my area charge their fee abased on % of build cost. They are not incentivised to keep costs down. You're better off going with an all i firm who do the design and build. They are incentivised to design, get your house through planning permission and build for a reasonable cost.

Can you not get a couple of quotes from builders for what you want?

Thanks all so much for taking the time to reply. Just to clarify a few points

The extension isn't going to be a difficult build. The back of our house is an unusual shape which doesn't affect the shape of the extension but does require some consideration of drainage, part wall agreement and we are unsure whether an existing wall would be able to support the extension or have to come down.

@tobedtoMNandfart The above is the reason we got an architect in. We had several builders in who each had a different opinion on whether the existing wall would support a flat or pitched roof. They also disagreed on whether steel was needed at the existing end of the house. Several suggested an architect would be able to advise and they could then work from the drawings

@lidoshuffle The brief and basis for the architect was almost exactly as @TheMobileSiteMadeMeSignup and @GiBlues describe. We wanted a spec'd out drawing, done to plan and with materials etc defined which we could then take to builders to get like for like quotes. The architect firm will approach builders for us to tender using their drawings

@Randomness12 Just to be clear, the 'unusual shape extension idea' and 'interesting glazing options' were not at all briefed by us but ideas the architect came back with. Our brief was simply 'we'd like to extend to match the neighbour's line. We'd like it to open into the existing back lounge. We have light issues so need to ensure it brings enough light into existing lounge. We'd like storage on one side'. That was literally our brief.

@roses2 Not sure if this makes a difference but they are charging a flat rate which we've paid upfront. As it's not a big build, there is no % of the cost of the build.

@Di11y All the builders we asked gave us quotes and without exception, they all came in at +/- 15% of our budget. We actually settled on the budget based on these quotes. The architects estimates are nearly double our budget. But don't really explain why they would differ from the builders quotes.

I am obviously now thinking I should have just picked a builder. But we're in an old house and we wanted to make sure it was done using the correct materials, build to last and fit in with the look at the back of the house

Sounds like you have champagne tastes on a Lambrusco budget!

I think using an architect was an error- a good builder with experience of working on your period house builds would have been fine, even better if your neighbours have extensions and they could recommend?

I do appreciate you have the best of intentions but I would not have appointed an architect for such a relatively small build.

Can you go back to a builder and start afresh with the knowledge you have from the architect and start again.

@Atalune

Sounds like you have champagne tastes on a Lambrusco budget!

I think using an architect was an error- a good builder with experience of working on your period house builds would have been fine, even better if your neighbours have extensions and they could recommend?

I do appreciate you have the best of intentions but I would not have appointed an architect for such a relatively small build.

Can you go back to a builder and start afresh with the knowledge you have from the architect and start again.

@Atalune Maybe you're right! I do love a champagne toast!

I genuinely don't think we've asked for anything too fancy but perhaps I'm wrong! We didn't specify lots of glass or bifolds, or fancy skylights... literally just extend the lounge next to the kitchen. We would prefer pitched roof as it's in keeping but open to flat roof options.

It was our neighbours who actually suggested an architect. They didn't use one for their build and bitterly regretted it as there were no end of issues where things weren't thought through and it ended up costing them more to get second builders in to make things right.

The zoom meeting we had with him did frustrate me as he spent the best part of the hour showing us all these wonderful ideas and photos, leaving DH and I thinking we could have way more than we expected...and then in the last 5 minutes showed us the estimates where the low one was just under twice our budget and the upper one was 2.5 times our budget. But with no clarity what was in each estimate. And they didn't include finishings...just the build (so no glass or plastering etc)

I can go back to the builders but the problem is we've paid upfront for the architect with the payment to end up with a planning drawing we can then use. So it seems silly to walk away from the money without pursuing that.

We've asked for a follow up and just asked the question: are you saying the extension is not viable at all with our budget? But that wasn't what he said when he came and did all the photos and measurements.

You are right, best of intentions in getting one but it is a small build and perhaps should have ploughed on with looking for an experienced builder

I hope I didn’t offend you!

Sounds really frustrating. I still think a “good” builder would know what walls were secure and which were not and so on..... I don’t know though as I have never used an architect just builders.

Really frustrating!

Oh not at all - no offence taken!

A few people have commented that we've perhaps not got enough budget but it just surprises me as it was around what the builders quoted and the architect said it was achievable when looking around.

I've just never used one before so wasn't sure if this just the norm and I need to be very very specific. But I thought telling him broadly what we wanted and our budget would be enough and he'd come back with 'this is what's possible with £x' not 'here's what you could have if you had loads more money' which doesn't really help us

And you're right, we should have persevered to find a good builder!

I spent an hour with one builder who spent ages asking lots of questions. He draw out what we wanted and we agreed a pitched roof with velux windows, open up into lounge, extend to meet the neighbours extension. I kept chasing for a quote as he said he'd sent it...I wondered if I'd given him the wrong email address. 2 days later it arrived on headed paper in the post. The quote said 'to extend by 2 meters (it's at least 4 to the neighbours extension), finish with a flat fibreglass roof, add in 3x lantern skylights (I'd expressly said we hated that sort of skylight and no idea why it suddenly became a flat roof)' and then simply an amount....no other details at all. So weird and no way anyone would approve work based on that as a quote!

Oh well, I'll progress with the architect and get into the finite detail on the estimates

OP have you ever watched George Clarke’s amazing spaces where a couple get an architect in to design an extension? They give him a budget and the architect comes back with all these amazing ideas the couple are thinking “wow our house will be amazing when we have this done!” then they get quotes and they’re more than double the original budget.
Sounds like what you’ve had here, architects are very good at spending other people’s money telling them what they should or shouldn’t do with their house.
Sit down with him or her again, have a solid idea of what you want and tell them that’s it, be firm with them.

You would need an architect anyway to draw up the proper plans to submit to planning. A builder doesn’t normally do this on his own.

You would normally get plans and get the building quotes based on these as they show if steels needed, what drainage requirements etc are .

It sounds like your architect not you. Ours drew up plans, warned us what would be more expensive options, it’s ended up more than the quotes we got from builders as it’s all much more detailed and specified.

He arranged for the structural engineer. Builders sent a QS round and quoted. 3 quotes all within a spit of each other.

I’m so glad we are using him.

It’s not a hugely difficult extension, but old house, some remodelling inside.

We gave our architect our budget and she designed to that. Quotes came in a range but close to what we had said.

Did you give the architect your budget? If so he should have given you options that could be achieved with that budget. This is what pisses me off about architects, you always see it on george Clarke's programme, they design over budget all the time and it's wrong!

@JimandPam

Thanks all so much for taking the time to reply. Just to clarify a few points

The extension isn't going to be a difficult build. The back of our house is an unusual shape which doesn't affect the shape of the extension but does require some consideration of drainage, part wall agreement and we are unsure whether an existing wall would be able to support the extension or have to come down.

@tobedtoMNandfart The above is the reason we got an architect in. We had several builders in who each had a different opinion on whether the existing wall would support a flat or pitched roof. They also disagreed on whether steel was needed at the existing end of the house. Several suggested an architect would be able to advise and they could then work from the drawings

@lidoshuffle The brief and basis for the architect was almost exactly as @TheMobileSiteMadeMeSignup and @GiBlues describe. We wanted a spec'd out drawing, done to plan and with materials etc defined which we could then take to builders to get like for like quotes. The architect firm will approach builders for us to tender using their drawings

@Randomness12 Just to be clear, the 'unusual shape extension idea' and 'interesting glazing options' were not at all briefed by us but ideas the architect came back with. Our brief was simply 'we'd like to extend to match the neighbour's line. We'd like it to open into the existing back lounge. We have light issues so need to ensure it brings enough light into existing lounge. We'd like storage on one side'. That was literally our brief.

@roses2 Not sure if this makes a difference but they are charging a flat rate which we've paid upfront. As it's not a big build, there is no % of the cost of the build.

@Di11y All the builders we asked gave us quotes and without exception, they all came in at +/- 15% of our budget. We actually settled on the budget based on these quotes. The architects estimates are nearly double our budget. But don't really explain why they would differ from the builders quotes.

I am obviously now thinking I should have just picked a builder. But we're in an old house and we wanted to make sure it was done using the correct materials, build to last and fit in with the look at the back of the house

Why don’t you show the architect the builder quotes you got already and ask him why they’re different? It might be for good reasons, e.g. the architect is counting VAT, structural engineer fees, planning fees that the builder didn’t consider.

We've had similar issues on a refurbishment. Without any expectations of what we were going to get (so not unrealistic) we provided a budget and a wish list. You then get this fantastic scheme which is priced up and horrendously over budget. It's like Bulls Eye.... here's what you could have won.
You then get them to come up with an affordable scheme, which would have been fantastic if presented first but now feels a bit like 2nd best.x

Thanks again for all the helpful replies.

@Star81This is pretty much why we are using an architect. We need proper plans to submit for planning and that a builder can work to.

What @BlackDogBlues describes is what we expected to get: he would draw up plans to our brief and consult with a structural engineer to make sure all is sound, then we would farm our to builders

@Sanch1Budget was the first thing we talked about. After our first meeting, he wrote up a brief which we agreed to and felt sure he understood our broad requirements. At the top is the budget.

@FudgeSundae Yes, showing the builders quotes is a good idea and we have asked for further information on why they differ so much. I completely take your point on some of the reasons they may differ but his estimates don't include VAT (very clear in his documents), the structural engineer and planning costs have been drawn out separately and were not part of our budget as we see these as over and above.

@Kiki275 You're right in that the affordable scheme (which I still don't think we've seen) will now be seen as second best.

I haven't seen George Clark's programme but wish I had as may have giving me some warning.

Interestingly he's just sent over documentation saying he wanted to confirm we had received his estimates and it outlines them sort of like below:
Client Budget: £X + VAT incl Finishings

OPTION 1: £X x 2 + VAT excl finishings
OPTION 2: £X x 2.5 + VAT excl finishings

But again, no detail of what's actual in option 1 and 2 and it must be clear from above that it's way over our budget

As many of you have suggested, I've asked for clarity and listed a load of questions and suggested a follow up chat

Our PILs had this - gave the architect a budget and they came back with a quote for double. I don't think they listen to their clients, they just design something they like themselves.