As a man

[Bookriddle]

Why is it unacceptable for me to take off day off work to look after my sick child, when it should be the mothers responsibility to look after the child!

This was just said to me by my female manager, me and my wife take it in turns when our little one is sick, infact we lose £80 for the day because of nursery, and we lose even more when my wife takes a day off compared to me!

AIBU to report what she said to hr or do I just leave it

Email to your manager, cc HR, asking her to confirm her comments, which you quote verbatim. She’ll think twice before ever doing it again!

I would have a word with HR. It may well be that they can't do anything yet because she said it over the phone, but it could help them to start building a picture if she's a repeat offender. And it might also prompt them to email all managers reminding them that emergency parental leave for childcare reasons is available to both sexes.

ok in a bad way I was trying to say that if she had kids she should be more understanding about the fact that this household splits it 50/50.

That just doesn’t automatically follow. Some of the most unsympathetic managers have children. Stop making this about clueless people without children. Just stop.

Make a written record of what happened - time of call, exactly what was said as far as you can remmber. Email it to yourself. There are plenty of HR disputes raised based on what someone said, not what they wrote conveniently in an email. It does help you to have an accurate written record you can refer back to, particularly if you can show a pattern of similar comments.

@PurpleDaisies

ok in a bad way I was trying to say that if she had kids she should be more understanding about the fact that this household splits it 50/50.

That just doesn’t automatically follow. Some of the most unsympathetic managers have children. Stop making this about clueless people without children. Just stop.

Definitely! A good manager without children will try to understand what thing are like for someone whose circumstances are different from theirs. A bad manager with children may assume that every person with children has similar attitudes and is in a similar situation to theirs.

A manager with children may be more likely to empathise on average, but there are many exceptions on both sides.

Wow some people really got out of bed in the wrong side today. Shot me for having an opinion, just going by my experiences.
OP, hope you get it sorted and your child is better soon

Wow some people really got out of bed in the wrong side today. Shot me for having an opinion, just going by my experiences.

So it’s not ok to make judgements solely based on whether someone is a man or not, but it’s totally fine to decide someone is a crap manager because they haven’t got kids? Think about the logic of that.

That's really poor - this should really be escalated, though if you want to maintain a good relationship I would follow up with the manager first, in writing, asking her to clarify the business policy for emergency dependents / compassionate leave. You might refer her to the relevant pages on the gov.uk and ACAS websites.

www.gov.uk/time-off-for-dependants
www.acas.org.uk/absence-from-work/time-off-to-help-someone-else

In short, your employer is expected to be reasonable about allowing you time off for emergency situations though they are not obliged to pay you for the time off unless stated in your contract.

I'd go with an email to your manager saying something like - "Just to clarify our conversation earlier - my understanding is that the law states that I should be allowed unpaid leave to deal with a childcare emergency as per ACAS / gov.uk advice. Could I please clarify the business policy for these situations?"

The other consideration, sadly, is how long you have been employed. If you have been with your current employer for less than two years, you have no recourse for unfair dismissal unless you were discriminated against for having a protected characteristic e.g. race, sex, religion.

We’ve had this too, my DH works in a male dominated industry and his colleagues were incredulous when he asked to book leave when DD was ill and I needed to go to a meeting.

In your shoes just say that it’s your turn and smile, apologise for the inconvenience it’s caused and crack on. Some companies are better than others at this sort of thing. Can you look to change teams or look for a role wfh? She sounds like a poor manager

Report her.

Reminds me of DH’s ex boss who said it didn’t seem fair on DH that he was taking most of his annual leave to “babysit his kids”. DH likes spending time with his children. It parenting not fucking babysitting. And the boss saw his own 4 year old one day a month and was always complaining about that. Pitiful.

I'm gonna phone hr in a bit, just to have a word with them, see what they say!

I was just so surprised, I havent been at the company to long, this is the first time I have had to take a day off, she has always come across as a good manager, also they are really flexible normally, I normally start at 6am, and some days I have to drop little one at nursery so dont start until 8, but I just make up the hours that day, so stay an extra 2 hours! I took this job because of the flexibility because my wife is a nurse and has no flexibility, so what she said totally shocked me!

I’d report it. You both have equal parenting responsibilities, so it’s only right that you take turns to have time off with you sick child. When my kids were small it was mostly me that would take the time off, but only because I lost less money than he did. If you’re the one who looses less it actually makes sense that you should take the most time off to look after our child. Ridiculous that anyone would think it’s solely the mothers responsibility. It’s whatever works for your family.

If she thinks it's okay for it to be the same parent who does all the emergency childcare, then once she's been set straight on gender discrimination, perhaps it paves the way for you to do it all - which sounds as if it is better for your family financially!

It's not sexism against OP. Systematic societal oppression of men on the basis of gender doesn't happen.

It’s direct discrimination against the OP on the basis that the comment wouldn’t have been made to a woman.

The assumption that it’s a woman’s job to take time off work to look after children is also incredibly sexist and very damaging towards women, and both men and women have a responsibility to challenge it.

that's right - it's discrimination to OP but not sexism (although there is an argument that if the manager thinks OPs wife should take the time off there is sexism there)

First time i had to take a day off for a sick DC my manager told me i should take personal leave. Clueless. First time my DH needed leave for a sick DC his boss told him to tell me to do it... DH took the days as needed as i was on a long business trip and not available.

Push back, OP, it's the only way this will change.

Toconclude - this is sexism against women because it implies that childcare is by default a women's role; which obviously undermines them in the workplace. It is also sexist towards men, because it implies that they should always prioritise work over children - why? Sexism affects men and women negatively - though obviously disproportionately women; but we are all connected, so it's over-simplistic to suggest men are not affected by stupid sexist attitudes like this. OP, please do report to HR - it's totally out of order - you should not have been expected to justify your actions in that way.

I'd be emailing her to confirm the details of your conversation and reiterating the shared parental responsibility you stated.
I'd blind copy HR in.

@PurpleDaisies

Wow some people really got out of bed in the wrong side today. Shot me for having an opinion, just going by my experiences.

So it’s not ok to make judgements solely based on whether someone is a man or not, but it’s totally fine to decide someone is a crap manager because they haven’t got kids? Think about the logic of that.

I agree with this, thank you. As a childfree person I'm always told I wouldn't understand things or it's assumed I hate kids and parents and have no idea of 'real life'. I wouldn't ever say or even think anything like the OPs manager has and it's horrible that I've had decades of comments like that, actual abuse about it and been treated poorly just because I chose not to have children. I'm still a human with empathy and common sense.

Unfortunately I dont have anyway of proving what she said, it was over the phone! Better than nothing is to drop her an email confirming the conversation and ending with "let me know if I've misunderstood" (so no reply means she agrees she said it).

I'm surprised so many people are surprised. I had several battles of this nature with my (male, with kids) manager.

Sadly (for both sexes) the idea that having children shouldn't have any impact on men's career is still very common.

It depends what you want to happen. People say 'report to HR' but what does that mean, what do you want them to do? Reporting to HR means you are making a formal complaint or grievance so you need to think about what you want to happen. Is it an apology, training on how to handle sensitive requests for leave etc. Also remember it's highly unlikely in this instance the complaint can be kept confidential so this manager will learn of the complaint (which doesn't mean you shouldn't go ahead with it). Do you think you could try and speak with her first about what she said and how it made you feel, maybe with another manager present if it makes you more comfortable?

@CaraDuneRedux

I would have a word with HR. It may well be that they can't do anything yet because she said it over the phone, but it could help them to start building a picture if she's a repeat offender. And it might also prompt them to email all managers reminding them that emergency parental leave for childcare reasons is available to both sexes.

I would go for this.

And next time email her when you need time off

@toconclude Of course it's sexism. It doesnt directly affects OP, but it's internalised sexism nonetheless.

There are still some dinosaur attitudes out there. Not everyone thinks the same, and it’s probably an attitude she’s inherited from her parents.

Definitely speak to HR. Despite always working FT compared to DW who works part time, as my jobs have always been more flexible, its always been easier for me to take time off when DS was younger and was off sick. Ive never had a problem with male or female managers with this, and have always been able to make up hours or just take time as leave. I like the idea of emailing the manager (as suggested above) to get confirmation that was what she had said, in writing. It will definitely help when you speak to HR. Good luck.