to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

Yes, I'll say it again to give Justa's throat a rest, I'm not talking about schools...

mother and baby groups are probably the best example of what I'm talking about.

I'm sorry that some of you find youselves in areas where the only only M&T group is run by the local church. And if you do find yourself in a M&T group that encourages sectarian violence, then, bloody hell yes, please complain loudly. But I do think it's a bit much to expect a church-run service to have to preface every mention of religion with a proviso that "of course children, not everyone believes this so keep and open mind"..

I'm also intrigued because most of the non-religious parents seem to be claiming that religion is so all pervasive that it's almost impossible to escape the indoctrination, and at the same time, most religious parents I know are perturbed by the overtly secular viewpoints presented all around.

I suppose it just goes to show that, like with the SAHM/Work for pay Mums debate, each perspective is more sensitive to criticism of themselves than others...

haven't read thread - the new format makes my head hurt
The problem that I have with the OP is that I don't think religion is actually benign .
I think "thank you prayers" for example while from a Christian perspective might seem benign from my perspective are not.
I think I draw a distinction between learning about other religions (fine) and being required/pressurised to observe and participate in a religious act of worship e.g.praying.
I don't care a jot about my children being exposed to other's beliefs, I think it's marvellous.
If I could suggest an analogy, how owuld you feel as a Christian if your child were asked to close their eyes and repeat after the teacher:

"I do not believe in God
I beleve everything in the bible is complete nonsense
There is no life after death
God is just a figment of your imagination
Amen."

ok maybe not the amen

Oh Lorayn, thats exactly what I used to think when I used to be a Christian.

Unfortunately its just far too comfortable and simplistic a get-out. The twin towers pilot went down shouting Allah's name. Sorry, you can't say thats not a religious person. I'm sure he thought he was.

Sue, apologies if I deviated from the point you were trying to make.

I agree that if you voluntarily opt in to something like a toddler group run by the church, then there should be no problems with a prayer or so at the end. Personally it would make me feel uncomfortable so I would never go to that kind of group, but the church is entitled, so to speak, to display its brand in its own products.

When I say benign, I'm not talking about beheading unbelievers

I mean simple concepts like thankfulness. You don't have to believe in my sky pixie to acknowledge that being generally thankful, be it to your parents, or just blind luck, is a healthy attitude to have...

I would say that the huge amount of volunteer work done by the churches in this country is fantastic and they should receive more credit.
I think that anyone who doesn't think that religious viewpoints have a tremendous influence in this country are delusional not you sue obviously you know I think you're marvellous etc.
but when policy makers invite opinions from "faith groups" I (personally) think that is insidious and nonsensical.
why should someone's opinion matter more because they believe something?
something without rational proof (which is the defintiion of faith)

I do think it's mildly loony to go to a church-run M&T group (or similar) and then complain about religious content. You don't need an M&T group, and it's easy enough to do something less formal with a group of like-minded mothers.

It's when there's a more-or-less necessary service (like schools, yes, although I know home ed is a possibility) that is only provided in a church/religious context that I get twitchy.

a simple concept like thankfulness is one thing.
thanking God is not about the concept of thankfulness it is about faith and worship, and to suggest otherwise is a little disingenuous to say the least.

Harpsi, I thought 'faith groups' got asked for their opinions on various things because they did community work, and they did the community work because of faith reasons. I think the community work was the relevant factor, rather than the faith - 'faith groups' is just a convenient grouping rather than secular charities.

Sue - to me associating concepts like thankfulness or any other moral values with the church is misleading. We should be thankful becuase it is a nice thing to be and because society works better if you appreciate the things that other people do for you. To bring God in to the concept does not help and in my view undermines the moral values that are being presented.

I am aware that I sound rabidly anti-religous, I am really not. I just think that the world would be a much better place if religion played a less public part in life and people focused on society's needs rather than God's.

I used to go to a M and T group in the local Baptist Church.

they provided the room, the lighting and heating and the initial toys. we did have subs but they just went on things like new toys and craft stuff, biscuits and a Christmas Party. It was run by the ministers wife. I eneded up on the comittee, in spite of my lack of faith!

I would have thought someone faintly irrational if they went to a Church run group and then got huffy over a 30 second prayer at the end of the session. The chiurch doesn't have to put on stuff like this, and if people object they can set up their own groups.

That's a fair point Sue (and whoever else made it). If the church runs the M&T groups and the volunteers who do so belong to that church then I'd absolutely expect them to discuss and encourage belief in their religion. My problem is that I don't want this and there aren't enough other options to this so people end up having to go to these local M&T groups.

I suspect this is because of the historic (and current) wealth of the church which has enabled it to fund many community organisation and projects where no other source of funds would be available. Even today it's hard to find funding for non-religious groups - our local (secular) toy library is closing because of lack of money.

I think this is also why there is a such a divide in opinion between particularly Christians and atheists etc. The former can see how much less influence and money they have today versus even 20 years ago, whilst the latter (myself included) believe that they still have far too much.

The government certainly does seem to be strongly considering contracting (and funding) faith groups to deliver services that would otherwise be provided by statutory authorities.

I find that concerning in itself since recent court cases have established that, contrary to the intentions of the Human Rights Act, such faith groups and other charities are not treated as 'Public Authorities', and hence will not be bound by the Human Rights Act should they take over community services.

Which is kind of where I was going with my earlier twitchiness...

Goosey, I'm not associating concepts like thankfulness with religion to the exclusion of others.

That's precisely my point, actually - the concept of thankfulness is a healthy thing, and we all have different motivations for it, so if some religious people say a 'thankyou' prayer, it's not a nefarious attempt to brainwash children (and even in the unlikely event that it was, it's not something that will turn them into raving lunatics) and it's a simple task to explain that some people believe in a God that they thank, etc. but we believe differently...

I agree with you Sue, but I think it depends on the context.

If its an "opt-in" group like M&T, then I have no problem with it whatsoever, and if I did, I could leave.

I have much more of a problem in an "opt-out" context like a school where I would actually see a "thank you prayer" as nefarious. It might not be meant as such, but it would be.

Mother and baby groups are often run by Baptist Churches. This is because, about 20 years ago, the Baptist church looked at the statistics are realised that it needed to create a massive push to mission to young families, in order to draw them into church. As a result, Baptist churches started a push to this sector of the community, by running mother and toddler groups. It has been hugely successful and resulted in the Baptist churches having a large influx of young families.

The whole PURPOSE of these mother-and-toddler groups IS mission/evangelism. That is what they are for. If you think this is evil and wrong, you really need to set up your own mother-and-toddler groups.

Yes, I have more sympathy with the non optional school situation, to be honest, than the M&T thing. And I do accept that not everyone can just say sod it, and home-ed instead.

Oh, that is really interesting. It didn't work on me, but that might have been all those hours I spent in a Baptist Chapel as a child! I was innoculated young.

But if it is their pound that is paying for the thing, I think you have to put up with the religion, or start your own group. And it doesn't have to be a big thing, you could get together with a number of like minded friends. MIL did this yaers ago with dh when he was a baby

[takes deep breath] Ok. so can I just point out that it is possible to believe in God and believe in the scientific way the earth was created, and evolution, etc. So if your child came home saying 'God made the world' you could say 'Well, some people believe that God was responsible for the big bang and for evolution, etc, and some people, like mummy, believe that it was a random act of the universe' Or something. Of course science does not have all the answers yet, but is the best way we have so far of knowing what happened and where we come from. And of course much of religion is myth and legend [eg much of Old Testament]. It can be argued that it stems from real truth and real events, real human events.

God is not really like believing in fairies at the bottom of your garden, because God is just a metaphor our spiritual life, for the revolutionary power of love and for what we don't understand and struggle to comprehend. Even if you are not a spiritual person it is still possible to see God as the unknown in science, as the knowledge we are struggling to decipher. Words are too limiting really in this context.

"thanking God is not about the concept of thankfulness it is about faith and worship, and to suggest otherwise is a little disingenuous to say the least."

harpsi that's an interesting point - I don't think that disingenious is the word for it though

I do think that there are meditative aspects of a service that you find in many non-religious relaxation techniques and community get-togethers - lighting candles, chanting/ mantras, collective singing, quiet thought

I have found in the past that going to church even when I have been in a very very agnostic mood still has benefits which I don't solely put down to the concept that God is in the building

so I don't think that it's disingenious to suggest that prayer is not just about faith and worship, but also a time to reflect personally

for example every Sunday dd goes to light a candle at the front of church (you don't have to do it, she just likes to) and we think about who she will remember as she lights it. I see it as a way to encourage her to think of someone other than herself, and usually she will come up with the idea herself of someone who she loves who she wants to remember. I don't see it solely as a religious act and I don't think she does either.

Sometimes M&T groups are run in church halls even though they have nothing to do with the church so you can forgive people for turning up at one and not knowing it is affiliated to the church.

In my village there are 2 M&T groups run in church halls. One has nothing to do with the church and the other one does.

Ruty - that's what God is to you and it sounds like a wonderful thing.

To others, God is their justification for hatred, intolerance and many forms of persecution. Exactly the same God

God is their justification for hatred, intolerance and many forms of persecution. Exactly the same God

-------

Ah, well technically it doesn't have to be the same God at all does it? If you don't believe in a God it's all rather moot anyway...

loses train of thought and goes to the end of the garden to chat with the fairies again

do people honestly believe that if there was no religion there would be no persecution?

it's a convenient routes for sadists and nutjobs to go, fair enough

but I'm sure they'd find others (racism anyone?) if they were short of religion

Religion, unfortunately is not benign. Organised religion [because human beings are capable of so much crap] are responsible for so much, er, crap. But there is a wide difference between organised, corrupt religion and the original teachings of something like Christianity [and the mystics that follwed]. That is like comparing President Bush with Gandhi or Mother Theresa.