to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

Cappo, i just don't understand your feeling offended by the term myth and legend. Since that's what atheists believe religion to be. Its not rude or vile, just plain english. what should I call it to be pc? I am not out to offend anyone.
By claiming outrage on the vocab I am using, you are not taking my belief seriously.

btw I always try to pick my words carefully, they are powerful and I'll stick with the last one:
definition of brainwashing:any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition e.g brainwashing by TV commercials.

daily prayer at school must come under that definition. if it didn't there's a lot of big companies wasting money on marketing their products!!

Oh that is interesting Sue. Thank you.

I am religious (woolly liberal CofE) and I can very well understand some parents' worries about some presentations of religion in schools. I went to a CofE primary with a lot of religion (including a whole-school performance of a very evangelical musical) and an extremely unChristian (and unchallenged) culture of nastiness to the 'different' . I would also be extremely unhappy about my children being taught creationism as science.

dh is an atheist/humanist, so we are in an interesting and sometimes tricky position in our family - but an advantageous one too, as dses are growing up right from the beginning with the 'some people believe so-and-so and some don't' position. This means that dh would not feel threatened or perturbed by dses attending a church school (we have discussed this as an option - Germany has no state church and the few church schools are semi-private, and I am unhappy about the mainstream German state system at present). Both of us have been forced to be tolerant right from the beginning of our relationship.

Emsmum, crikey, I'm not annoyed about it, and the 'safety valve' thing makes perfect sense.

"By claiming outrage on the vocab I am using, you are not taking my belief seriously."

you must be having fun tonight lil

but I'm off to bed

I agree with every word of EmsMum on this thread.

(oh dear, I use far too many parentheses)

And Lil makes sense too. (Phew, exhausted with my ontrobution to this thread.)

parentheses (it is a well known fact) are the friends of all (and when I say all, I mean most) educated folk who want to squeeze as many thoughts (as feasibly possible) into a short space.

Sue - oh good. I guess I assume anyone who starts an IABU thread is irritated!

Christina - oh good. Sometimes when I re-read my posts I don't agree with myself so its nice to know someone does

I think the issue is that if you have a religion, and the school makes no reference to religion (or lack of) whatsoever, you can easily practise that religion at home and instill it into your child in your own way. In other words, no-one has put something important (and personal) into your child's head which you then have to undo.

However, if you do not believe there is a god, yet your children are taught at school that there is one by the teacher whom they look up to, then we have the difficult task of contradicting the teacher at home, and telling the child that what they've been told is nonsense. This is confusing and unfair on the child. It also undermines their respect for the teacher because if their parents tell them that the teacher is wrong here, then they may wonder where else the teacher may be wrong.

Hope that makes sense.

could'nt agree with you more suebaroo, why dont these winging fools just teach they're kids at home. nothing seems good enough for them. what do they want their kids to believe in. the tooth fairy? father christmas? i bet thats ok.

Existence of God not empirically proven!
Therefore, like very hard quantum-y science stuff etc, should be kept away from babies till they understand a leeetle bit more.

I tried so hard to stay away.

(but yes sue, just yes!)

As I have started threads of the nature the OP refers to, thought I would pitch in here.

I have no problem whatsoever with christian mums and tots groups. I would not go to one, but think they are a good thing for those whose beliefs they reflect.

I have no problem whatsoever with my children being taught what other people believe. Indeed since religion is a fundamental paret of society, their education and comprehension of the world would be lacking if they did not learn this.

What I object to very strongly is state schools (particularly in rural areas where there are no alternatives) presenting regligion to impressionable children as a fact. It is not - it is a belief and not mine.

I cannot subscribe to the "well it does no harm" view. Dh is from Nothern Ireland and I defy anyone who has lived there to say that religion does no harm. I had associates who died in the world trade centre - again, I defy you to say that relgion does no harm. You personal view of religion may be a gentle and loving one, but in my view, the institutions of organised religion are responsible for a great deal that it would be better had never happened. Sorry if this offends anyone.

I think it depends on what you mean. I have no problem with my children being taught about religion (all religions). Whatever I think about it religion impacts many parts of our lives and theology and the study of beleif is fascinating. But I would prefer not to have my DC's forced to take part in any kind of act of worship until they are old enough to decide for themselves.

Willbiteyourneck:

Grammar aside, your post doesn't really make a lot of sense. No-one is whinging, those of us who only believe things which are proven to be true just don't want authority figures, ie teachers, telling our kids what we believe to be lies which we then have to disagree with at home.

Unfortunately in schools, even private ones, god is referred to as if he/she/it definately does exist. In my experience, teachers have never told the children that many people believe there is no god, and why. Non belief is just not taught. This is the problem.

Sue, the problem I have is that religion 'creeps' into what are ostensibly non-religious areas like, for example, mother and baby groups.

Although I'm an atheist I have absolutely no issue with people being free to practice and celebrate their religion however they feel appropriate (well within the law). I'm also very happy to have DS exposed to all forms of religion, be it Christianity, Islam, Sikhism or whatever. I'm fascinated by religion and theology myself.

BUT, what I would like is for this exposure to be upfront and in the form of "This is , many people believe it to be true because of . However, many people do not believe it is true because of .", i.e. in a 'box' called religion.

I want DS to question and have an open mind about everything. What I absolutely wouldn't want is having him presented or taught about or learn about any religion which is presented as being 'the truth'. I'm not sure having faith based groups are compatible with this since even if they welcome "open discussion" intrinsically they favour their faith over any other.

Of course you can say "well just don't go to them" but where I live it's really hard to avoid having at least some contact with the church, be it through the local primary school or other groups for kids. And let's face it, it's also not like there's a ton of groups for secular humanists, agnostics or atheists either!

If DS grows up to be a vicar then great. If he grows up to be an atheist then also great. The most important thing to be is that he makes up his own mind based on as much independent information he can get.

Gooseyloosey, I just want to say that the harm you are talking about may be done in the name of religion, but is not done by truly religious people, those who follow their faith truly would never intentionally harm another.

justaboutdripping -- Sue specifically said she wasn't talking about faith schools, but not that she wasn't talking about schools at all. What has got a lot of people aerated on this thread as well as others is tha amount of religion in supposedly non-faith schools (e.g. policywonk's "DS1, who was not even aware that such a thing as religion existed six weeks ago, has already been attending Christian-based assemblies, a Christian Harvest festival in a church, and attends a school that has the local vicar on its board of governors. This is NOT a church school!") It really does seem to be the default position.

'Sue, the problem I have is that religion 'creeps' into what are ostensibly non-religious areas like, for example, mother and baby groups. '

Mind you lots of M and T groups are run by church organisations, by godly volenteers! If they are paying, and they are doing the work, I think they have some rights in having a prayer at the end.

Lorayn - I cannot agree with you. I do acknowledge that to many religious people acts such as these are abhorrent but to many fundamentalists (of whatever religion) they are a necessary article and demonstration of their faith. For this reason (amongst others) I do not see relgion as a benign influence.

I reiterate, I have no problem with it being taught as a belief which some people hold, but nothing more.

I know, Dripping. My kids don't attend faith schools. If they did then I could not be surprised at the religion problem. It is the fact that this business is sneaked into ALL schools without any regard for parents' wishes that is so wrong.