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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this was an inappropriate school task

502 replies

Lalalabrador · 20/01/2021 20:59

My year 8 daughter was asked to write an essay today on the question How did India benefit from colonialism and how was it harmed by it? I’m pretty gobsmacked. I’m a professional historian and sad that something so intellectually bankrupt is being taught to young people.

OP posts:
AlexaShutUp · 21/01/2021 20:39

yes benefits for Nazi Germany.. He gave them pride.. he gave hope.. he gave a scapegoat.

But the benefits of Nazism for Germany would not be comparable to the "benefits" of colonialism for India. The appropriate comparison there would be to assess the benefits of colonialism for the British, of which of course there were many.

DenisetheMenace · 21/01/2021 20:42

“the country was raped and pillaged and the British pulled out leaving the vast majority illiterate and below the poverty line. “

Were the majority not impoverished and illiterate before the British arrived, under the rule of Mughals and Maharajas? (Sorry if those titles are incorrect, not an historian, remembered from school history).
I believe the former rulers made a pretty penny out of colonialism too?

Coffeeallday · 21/01/2021 20:47

I think it’s a great question. It’s got me intrigued. I am Indian and some Indians loved the British Raj and desperately wish we were back in those times. Others hated it and are proud to be independent.

It’s a challenging and interesting question. I would’ve taken up history GCSE or A level if my history teachers were this interesting.

CrotchBurn · 21/01/2021 20:50

You are not a historian. Don't lie. An actual historian would know that there were naturally and inevitably benefits of colonialism.

SarahAndQuack · 21/01/2021 21:03

@CrotchBurn

You are not a historian. Don't lie. An actual historian would know that there were naturally and inevitably benefits of colonialism.
Have you met many historians?

I don't mean people who did History at Oxford before joining the Tory party.

Ihatefish · 21/01/2021 21:58

@chomalungma

History does have value judgements though even in the words chosen to describe events.

I remember learning about the Indian mutiny in school.

I went to India and to Lucknow where it happened. There I learned about the Indian Rebellion.

The current focus on statues, renaming streets etc and people's reactions to it shows that people in power don't want to talk about history from a different perspective.

Yes -that is why I caveated it with -as far as possible. As soon as we convert anything into words we betray our personal and societal bias. Words are powerful things. What we choose to investigate is tied to society’s priorities and our own world view. Can we ever make free unbiased choices about anything let alone study and teach without prejudice.

What we can do though is be aware of the things that limit our truest free research and expression and question our motives for formulating arguments one way or another or indeed for starting them in the first place.

All knowledge and communication is tainted by the human ego.

Diverseopinions · 21/01/2021 22:00

I've just done some reading on BBC Bitesize, and I've recognised that the British did a lot of fighting and massacring to secure it's Empire. Britain fought the French over its Indian interests and the Boers over South Africa. The Empire was built on base and competitive quests for trade and resources.
I think I'm correct in thinking that as the members of these overseas territories gained access to education and politicisation in greater numbers, so they questioned the morally bankrupt 'governance' of the British and explored alternative modes of organising political and civic life. I wouldn't be surprised if ideas were linked to socialist and equality -based beliefs in Europe. A means of doing the Labour Party over there. A way of being enlightened and progressive and better. As Britain changed and took on responsibilities of maintaining a welfare state, people in GB probably thought it was time for a change overseas too. The Empire was outdated.
It was really the scientists and inventors who brought benefit to all kinds of communities throughout the world. If it wasn't for Stephenson and Fleming, and Bell, we wouldn't have had trains, penicillin and the telephone to make life productive and better. Thank selfless scientists, not idiotic government politicians who have for decades behaved, with their commerce cronies, like spoilt beligerant brats. Not too different to certain politicians today and their big business buddies squabbling with Brussels and seizing advantages as if it's great to be selfish and sharp-elbowed. It will be the lawyers and scientists, probably, who will be said to have brought benefits to the European Community.

So why not phrase the Year 8 assignment: 'In what way did communities in India benefit from the scientific discoveries of the Victorian Industrial Revolution? '
Scientists are saving us again with the Covid vaccine today. But I won't personally look back and praise the government for getting us out of Covid, anymore than I'd thank the British governments of 1850 - 1950 for getting the Indian communities into a good place vis a bid their environment and the challenges of harnessing it to provide for the population's needs.

Ihatefish · 21/01/2021 22:38

@Diverseopinions

I've just done some reading on BBC Bitesize, and I've recognised that the British did a lot of fighting and massacring to secure it's Empire. Britain fought the French over its Indian interests and the Boers over South Africa. The Empire was built on base and competitive quests for trade and resources. I think I'm correct in thinking that as the members of these overseas territories gained access to education and politicisation in greater numbers, so they questioned the morally bankrupt 'governance' of the British and explored alternative modes of organising political and civic life. I wouldn't be surprised if ideas were linked to socialist and equality -based beliefs in Europe. A means of doing the Labour Party over there. A way of being enlightened and progressive and better. As Britain changed and took on responsibilities of maintaining a welfare state, people in GB probably thought it was time for a change overseas too. The Empire was outdated. It was really the scientists and inventors who brought benefit to all kinds of communities throughout the world. If it wasn't for Stephenson and Fleming, and Bell, we wouldn't have had trains, penicillin and the telephone to make life productive and better. Thank selfless scientists, not idiotic government politicians who have for decades behaved, with their commerce cronies, like spoilt beligerant brats. Not too different to certain politicians today and their big business buddies squabbling with Brussels and seizing advantages as if it's great to be selfish and sharp-elbowed. It will be the lawyers and scientists, probably, who will be said to have brought benefits to the European Community.

So why not phrase the Year 8 assignment: 'In what way did communities in India benefit from the scientific discoveries of the Victorian Industrial Revolution? '
Scientists are saving us again with the Covid vaccine today. But I won't personally look back and praise the government for getting us out of Covid, anymore than I'd thank the British governments of 1850 - 1950 for getting the Indian communities into a good place vis a bid their environment and the challenges of harnessing it to provide for the population's needs.

I don’t really know where to begin with this. But 1. Britain was not alone in colonising the world. 2. Well the impact of the Industrial revolution on the world led to quite a bit of suffering. 3. Holding out science as the zenith of human existence is very er contemporary with the British Empire I will give you that. The “disenchantment of the world” reflected the view that the Enlightened Victorian man was the pinnacle of evolution. It relegated cultures within the empires to a bunch of magic fearing savages. Science, far from being the wonderful saviour was often the means of relegating the countries governed by the various colonies to appearing backward and in need of governance. Technology became the new slave masters.

You can’t ask how the Scientific Discoveries of the industrial revolution benefited other countries without it being a completely loaded question - for indigenous cultures it was a disregard of their world view and inflicting another on them. Indeed, given the state of the world how much did these discoveries help us at all? But that’s a completely separate question.

june2007 · 21/01/2021 22:46

Actually Penescillin wasn,t discovered by flemming. It was a team and he claimed the fame.

DioneTheDiabolist · 21/01/2021 23:56

This is not an ill thought out question from a stupid/woke/racist teacher. It comes from the curriculum.

You can do critical thinking with a poem. Let's leave it there.
Erm, what?Confused

FunkBus · 22/01/2021 00:35

@june2007 1. Penicillin 2. Fleming and 3. All scientific discoveries involve teams, there aren't that many mad solo scientists working in labs

mathanxiety · 22/01/2021 04:47

I wouldn't be surprised if ideas were linked to socialist and equality -based beliefs in Europe. A means of doing the Labour Party over there. A way of being enlightened and progressive and better. As Britain changed and took on responsibilities of maintaining a welfare state, people in GB probably thought it was time for a change overseas too.

Whoa Nelly....

Hmm
whittingtonmum · 22/01/2021 04:59

I agree, OP. It's a totally ridiculous questions. Our poor children still being asked to approach the subject in this regressive and outdated manner. Beggars belief.

Mummyoflittledragon · 22/01/2021 05:02

@DenisetheMenace

“the country was raped and pillaged and the British pulled out leaving the vast majority illiterate and below the poverty line. “

Were the majority not impoverished and illiterate before the British arrived, under the rule of Mughals and Maharajas? (Sorry if those titles are incorrect, not an historian, remembered from school history).
I believe the former rulers made a pretty penny out of colonialism too?

The Moguls, ie outsiders were losing power and the Maharajas gaining. The latter were the ruling classes of the population and I appreciate very far from perfect. With indigenous princes in power, however, the wealth would have stayed in the country. Jobs would have been for the locals and the country would have gone in a different direction. We cannot say if it would have been worse or better. But the country wouldn’t have been stripped of its assets by a ruling class, who brought ‘progress’ in its own image and denied the population an ability to govern their progress or even operate it. Indians weren’t allowed to work on the railways or build locomotives for example; so when the Raj pulled out, no one knew how to operate and maintain the railways and India was forced to ask for help from their former rulers. That was the British legacy. Better for some. Worse for a lot of others.
mathanxiety · 22/01/2021 05:07

I still believe it's valid to discuss why Nazism seemed like something positive to Germans at the time. Otherwise we learn nothing from history.

Agree, @SomersetHamlyn.
...seemed like something positive to Germans at the time is so important.
The questions to ask centre around this.
Why did it seem so?
Why did a man who attempted to violently overthrow a government end up a few years later riding to popularity on a law and order platform?
Focusing on end results teaches very little about patterns, about processes, about incremental changes that add up over time.

The context, how things seemed at the time - these are the important aspects of the past for 12 year olds to study. Not faits accomplis, with accompanying judgements about whether outcomes were good or bad.

What you want students to understand is that everything they read that is shelved in the History section has its own context, its own slant, its own pov too. Students cannot approach the study of History without understanding this.

They taught what they called History in the schools of the Third Reich too, after all.

SheeshazAZ09 · 22/01/2021 05:09

OP have you been to India? I have. I went with the idea that British colonialism was an entirely bad thing for India and actually tried to apologise for it to several people I met. To a man/woman, they were extremely positive about it in very many aspects and several older folk actually said they preferred the colonial times. It was a bit like that monty python film where someone in a Romans-occupied country says, disgruntled, “what have the Romans done for us?” And then someone else lists a load of benefits they didn’t have previously, eg roads, central heating etc. Among so ‘benefits’ of British rule listed by the Indian ppl I spoke to were roads, railways, dams (thus water supplies), judicial and admin systems, schools of the type we are familiar with, a common language... the list went on and on.

I can honestly say I was humbled by my ignorant assumptions and learned to assume a bit less regarding how people of a certain country feel about political developments.

Ok but I still didn’t give up there. I said, yes but what about the British destroying aspects of the ancient Indian culture by for example setting up schools that didn’t teach the indigenous culture and replaced it with British culture? They told me that the British were far less destructive of their culture (Hindu in this case) than other invaders and that the benefits outweighed the destruction.

These were common views, not outliers.

I was pretty gobsmacked but came to realise it was patronising of me to go with a preconceived judgement of how they should see us British.

I should add that in no way do I approve of colonialism in general. I think it’s a shameful thing that anyone should take over other people’s countries and lives.

mathanxiety · 22/01/2021 05:12

You can do critical thinking with a poem.

You can produce an emotional response to a poem.
In certain circumstances it could be analysed as a primary source.

But I am willing to bet a large sum of money that you cannot use a poem to elicit critical thinking.

mathanxiety · 22/01/2021 05:22

Would a better question have been what were the circumstances under which India became part of the British Empire and how did India change whilst under British rule?

@Ihatefish - yes, I think that would have been a better question.

It would have presented an opportunity for the students to familiarise themselves with the chronology of colonisation, the reasons behind the imperial impetus, and the impact over time on India under various headings.

Ihatefish · 22/01/2021 07:44

@mathanxiety

I still believe it's valid to discuss why Nazism seemed like something positive to Germans at the time. Otherwise we learn nothing from history.

Agree, @SomersetHamlyn.
...seemed like something positive to Germans at the time is so important.
The questions to ask centre around this.
Why did it seem so?
Why did a man who attempted to violently overthrow a government end up a few years later riding to popularity on a law and order platform?
Focusing on end results teaches very little about patterns, about processes, about incremental changes that add up over time.

The context, how things seemed at the time - these are the important aspects of the past for 12 year olds to study. Not faits accomplis, with accompanying judgements about whether outcomes were good or bad.

What you want students to understand is that everything they read that is shelved in the History section has its own context, its own slant, its own pov too. Students cannot approach the study of History without understanding this.

They taught what they called History in the schools of the Third Reich too, after all.

Great post. Approached like this, history is one of the most important things the human race can study.
Ihatefish · 22/01/2021 07:48

I’ve really enjoyed this thread (despite its dubious start). It’s really helped develop my thinking around how history is approached (being neither an historian or civil servant😂) -sometimes mumsnet can be very educational.

icedgem85 · 22/01/2021 07:51

You’re a professional historian? It’s just a simplistic question. I’d go along the lines of, colonialism in India meant there were lots of jobs in cotton/silk/spice export, but this was greatly outweighed by [ insert everything else ]

Lookslikerainted · 22/01/2021 07:56

@Lalalabrador

India did not benefit from colonialism. There is no for or against colonialism. There ‘weren’t good people on both sides’. I want my daughter to learn the truth about the British Empire not a skewed, jingoistic myth of a Britain generously bestowing ‘civility’ on the poor ‘savages’ of the colonies.
@Lalalabrador

Yes it’s true the down sides massively outweighed the small positives, but the miles of railways, hospitals and schools is what the teacher is looking for here. Maybe write to the school about decolonising the curriculum.

Ihatefish · 22/01/2021 09:27

I suppose one option for the child of the historian would be to pull apart the question in the introductory paragraph and state that it is not appropriate for the historian to make value judgements and present the changes as facts in the essay.

The conclusion could read it is difficult to know which changes altered India for the better or worse (which in itself is a value judgement -eg did mass transportation help or hinder the planet) as a consequence of British rule as society isn’t a control experiment but the changes which occurred during this time had consequences which are still being felt today.

Plussizejumpsuit · 22/01/2021 09:48

@icedgem85

You’re a professional historian? It’s just a simplistic question. I’d go along the lines of, colonialism in India meant there were lots of jobs in cotton/silk/spice export, but this was greatly outweighed by [ insert everything else ]
I commented on the first few pages and this example is the sort of thing I was thinking.
Ylvamoon · 22/01/2021 09:58

...the benefits of Nazism forGermanywould not be comparable to the "benefits" of colonialism for India

I find it astonishing that on these type of threads there is always a side discussion of Nazi Germany. Almost as a justification for (in this case) colonialism.
My truth is, Nazi Germany happened because of the Versailles Traty...
India kicked out the British as a result of WW2...

I know it's far more complex, but nothing tahat happened in the past is a stand alone issue.