To think more people should be incentivised to downsize?

[Sprockerdilerock]

I'm sure I will be flamed but here goes.

I know so many older adults who live in family size homes long after their children have left. Would it not be better for the government to offer incentives eg no stamp duty, removal costs paid for them to downsize to free them up for those that need them more?

We do have a housing shortage and I get that we could always build more homes, but we are also heading towards a climate crisis and surely it's better to use what resources we do have more efficiently and plough less energy into creating more.

My MIL is case in point - she still lives in the home my DH and his siblings grew up and often expresses a wish to downsize but she doesn't have a lot of money to spend on things like legal costs etc.

@Ideasplease322

I believe in free will and free markets.

People should live where they want if they can afford it. Age and marital status are irrelevant.

This is true, but there is plenty of evidence that staying in family homes causes so many people mental and physical anguish. Trips and falls, being unable to climb stairs, even struggling to keep on top of hoovering. Not to mention social isolation.

It should be about forcing anyone to sell up and move into a cramped granny flat to make space for families. It should be aimed at massively improving the quality of life of people who are living far longer, and with more health problems than before. A happy by-product could be freeing up a larger home for a family who wants it.

I do sometimes wonder if this will be the next big focus for environmentalism, and I'm sure I remember reading a guardian article that referred to a UN plan for sustainable living that involved everyone living in very small flats. Not sure some of those people thinking how good it would be to free up big houses for families would react if they found out they too were already taking up too much space in many cases!

Anyway, as someone who lives in a house that is definitely more than I 'need', I find the thought thoroughly depressing. I have two selfish wants in life: to travel and to have a home I love (which means not being too close to people if I can help it). The first I'm really cutting down on, but don't think I can give up on the other as well. I don't have kids and am not sure I'd feel there was much worth striving for in life if I had to give up my home too.

We’ve upsized for retirement, bought a house in a much cheaper area so we can have all our kids and grandchildren come and stay. It’s rented out at the moment to one of our kids because it’s not time yet.

To be clear, I'm in favour of creating incentives for people to downsize - carrots not sticks.

Instead of costly first time buyer grants, that benefit primarily fairly privileged people who were going to buy anyway, they could offer people in larger houses subsidies towards legal and moving costs, or even to subdivide land or convert to flats.

People could move to more manageable or more suitable places - for example somewhere with better public transport, closer to family or to a loved spot. older people downsizing before becoming 'elderly' would let them be far more in control and make it a beneficial move. They would have some cash to spend, and in my parents' experience it was also a good opportunity to sort through their home properly - having been involved in clearing out after my grandmother died it was heartbreaking but we couldn't properly sort and care for her things, my cousins and I tried but there was so much stuff that after a week we were having to bundle things in bulk to charity and the tip.

[quote donewithitalltodayandxmas]@nicebreeze a bungalow take up a lot of square footage compared to a house , so that is not a cheap way. Since when so we live in a country that tells people when they should downsize and sell their house ? What next do we say actually we don't have loads of big houses so no one have more than 2 kids ?? What kind of country do people want to live in. Or do they only want people to be told to do things that won't affect them.[/quote]
Traditional, sprawling bungalows create less profit, yes, and don't make "best use" of a plot of land. But there might be plenty of people who'd love a small bungalow (so far higher density and more on a plot) with a small garden, maybe communal allotments instead.

I'm not saying it's as good a return as flats / but using modern methods of construction would mean far lower building costs.

Would love to downsize. Bungalow with garden and space for off road parking. Doors wide enough for wheel chair access for mother nearly 90. Problem is, everyone round here wants the same

Personally I have owned a couple of bungalows. I don’t think I would buy one again as they are so difficult to sell

@AcornAutumn

nicebreeze "Totally agree with you. We don't even really need big govt incentives (tho it would help) - we just need a clearer understanding of the sort of housing (tenures / schemes, size, etc) older people want to be able to move without feeling like they're "downsizing" in the sense that feels like a sacrifice. "

I'm not a mind reader, but I strongly suspect you will find the type of housing "older people" want to live in will be....the home they've lived in a good chunk of their life. Often with neighbours they've known a good chunk of their life.

In many cases, downsizing is a sacrifice, there isn't a way to sugar coat that.

I'm not a mind reader either - Though I have read a lot about this topic area - but that's why the consensus is it needs more research.

Anecdotal stuff is useful, but only when we also have really good intel about populations in areas (what works for a sleepy coastal town with countryside all around won't necessarily work for a densely populated urban centre).

They'll be easier and easier to sell as the population over 60 continues to grow...

@user1467048527

I wouldn't call it 'environmentalism', there is another name for that.

I'm sure I remember reading a guardian article that referred to a UN plan for sustainable living that involved everyone living in very small flats

Why on earth should we be listening to or let alone adhering to a UN plan? Who are they to dicate how we should be living?

Absolutely agree with @OverTheRubicon

[quote trulydelicious]@user1467048527

I wouldn't call it 'environmentalism', there is another name for that.

I'm sure I remember reading a guardian article that referred to a UN plan for sustainable living that involved everyone living in very small flats

Why on earth should we be listening to or let alone adhering to a UN plan? Who are they to dicate how we should be living?[/quote]
Well we've signed up to these, so we're tied in to some extent:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/implementing-the-sustainable-development-goals/implementing-the-sustainable-development-goals--2

The last thing young people need is old people with more money outbidding them for smaller houses. Come on now.

overtheRubicon "The older couple likely were able to.afford the house on one salary back in the day, and their children will.benefit from a large unearned windfall when they inherit, but the other couple with kids should just have to lump it because it's none of their business?"

Well, yes!

Also, where is the benefit? Try and get retired people into flats like mine....then the cost of tiny flats will get even higher surely?

I'm genuinely stunned there's so much support for this idea here. So many of us are caring for elderly parents as well and know how much their homes mean to them and how much they are used in terms of "spare" rooms.

[quote trulydelicious]@user1467048527

I wouldn't call it 'environmentalism', there is another name for that.

I'm sure I remember reading a guardian article that referred to a UN plan for sustainable living that involved everyone living in very small flats

Why on earth should we be listening to or let alone adhering to a UN plan? Who are they to dicate how we should be living?[/quote]
I hate to be the one to say it, but do you know what's going on with the green agenda? It's pretty fucking scary.

@saraclara

The last thing young people need is old people with more money outbidding them for smaller houses. Come on now.

It's not that black and white though. At the moment the market in many areas is showing a trend towards buying 2/3 bed homes, not 4/5 bed homes and developers respond to this. Of course they do, they build what sells and don't want houses to sit unsold a day longer than they have to. So if this is the demand it's also what local planning authorities can start to required the spread of house sizes to look like when new developments are built.

The housing market is a highly inflated bubble, it's dysfunctional and it makes the rest of society dysfunctional
Suspect there is no pain free way out of this situation

@OverTheRubicon

They'll be easier and easier to sell as the population over 60 continues to grow...

Sorry, what will be easier to sell?

@AcornAutumn I'm genuinely stunned there's so much support for this idea here. So many of us are caring for elderly parents as well and know how much their homes mean to them and how much they are used in terms of "spare" rooms.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting your elderly parents are forced out of the home they love. But for every couple in their position there's a couple struggling to manage, which won't get easier, and there should be better provision for them to allow them to "right size". For those people there's also wider family worrying about the upkeep of the house, whether the carers have gone round, what will happen when their parents just can't be there safely anymore.

I feel split about the downsize debate, if it's been your home for 30, 40 years , then that's what it is, Home. But like you say, there is a housing crisis, family homes are needed. Where I live, London/essex border, there is a huge shortage of 1 and 2 bedroom properties, so those that wish to downsize, and there are many, don't have an option, unless it's right out of the area, which is unfair as you get older.
One thing that I find strange, but again, sit on the fence about, is those that come into a large amount of money and are in social housing. A cousin was left an inheritance of over 2 million, 2 years ago. Her 5 children have left home and it's her and husband in a 4 bed social property. But she has since bought 2 properties in areas, in the uk that she has always holidayed in. Not sure how that works, as they are empty properties and they are living in social housing?
I remember 36 years ago when I got married, in Hackney, we were offered the choice of 3 council and H/A properties, all around Victoria park, this was because, even though our parents owned their houses, we were under 20 and the council had to provide (We ended up buying in the end) How times have changed!

@AcornAutumn

I'm genuinely stunned there's so much support for this idea here

Very different IRL

So many of us are caring for elderly parents as well and know how much their homes mean to them and how much they are used in terms of "spare" rooms

You or your parents should not be apologising/providing justification to anyone for your choices

@OverTheRubicon

They'll be easier and easier to sell as the population over 60 continues to grow...

I'm in Australia, where virtually all suburban houses were single-storey. My God, "bungalows" fly off the sales ads, very much in demand as, being older, they're on decent-sized blocks.

Unfortunately the buyers are often property developers who fit umpteen two-storey units with no garden on to the block.

Like many older posters in the UK, older Aussies are in a similar position. I'd like to downsize but (see above) would need to move out of my area where right now I can walk to my doctor, dentist, bank, fishmongers, grocers, beach, friends, bookshop, newsagent, cafes, restaurants, vet, post office. Excellent triage A&E hospital within 4Ks.

Why would I do that?

Fortunately for me the house I'm rattling around in has, like many Au houses, bedrooms and a bathroom on the ground floor. If it all goes tits up I can live on one level.

[quote nicebreeze]**@AcornAutumn* I'm genuinely stunned there's so much support for this idea here. So many of us are caring for elderly parents as well and know how much their homes mean to them and how much they are used in terms of "spare" rooms.*

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting your elderly parents are forced out of the home they love. But for every couple in their position there's a couple struggling to manage, which won't get easier, and there should be better provision for them to allow them to "right size". For those people there's also wider family worrying about the upkeep of the house, whether the carers have gone round, what will happen when their parents just can't be there safely anymore. [/quote]
The care example is a key reason why people don't want to move!

Space for live in carers, be they family members or paid carers. As I said, I am a carer. Some might worry about the upkeep of the house but I am very happy to do it. Like many older people's homes, their children might not live there officially but it's important there's room for us on account of the caring duties.

I really struggle in my tiny flat but I don't think there should be "better provision" for me.

This is all getting scarily utilitarian. I better go to bed and try not to have nightmares.

@trulydelicious thanks.

So far, my time on MN hasn't reflected real life much so hopefully you are right.

Mil makes noises about downsizing but she would lose her network of friends who live in walking distance. She also needs good transport links as she can’t drive.

We had no help when buying, 1 bedroom flat, 2 bedroom flat and now a 3 bedroom house and we’ve done it all. It is just the 2 of us in a 3 bedroom, the family we hoped to have when we bought has not been possible unfortunately. It works as we have an office each right now and our bedroom is separate from work.