Dogs behaving badly

[MrsFluffyMuff]

I've seen this show being discussed more frequently on mumsnet and some people really love it, some people hate it. My question is, if you don't like the show or you don't like the dog trainer Graeme Hall, why? Just curious as to how he managed to get on TV in the first place if his methods don't work?

P.S if you work for the daily mail, fuck off

YABU = it's a terrible show with bad advice
YANBU = it's a great show with great advice

www.dogfather.co.uk/

I've only seen it a couple of times and the reason I don't watch it anymore is because it's so fake.
You see the ' naughty ' dog misbehaving then he has a few words with the handler/owner and bingo!! Half an hour later the dog is good as gold.
Dogs are not born naughty (mischievous maybe 😀)they misbehave because the owners haven't a clue or can't be bothered to train the dog or care for him or her properly.
Correcting this behaviour takes time,patience and hard work(and that's just the handler/owner)by reinforcing good behaviour and ignoring bad .Dogs just adore attention and they will take it in any shape of form,even if they are being told off.I
So I think the programme is misleading ,people might give up or because it hasn't magically happened in minutes.

I dislike it for several reasons:

• it's unrealistic. You can't turn around a dogs' behaviour in fifteen minutes. He advertises himself as some kind of miracle trainer and it's just not the case. Good training takes months, not minutes.

• his methods are not ideal. He shouts, tugs on leads (while dogs are in collars, which can cause damage to the neck/throat area) and is also negative reinforcement. Owners should not be encouraged to get in their dogs faces, shout or yank their pets around by the neck.

• my additional worry about the neck yanking methods, is that if it stops working, the owner will just tug the lead harder to get the same results, increasing the chance of damage to the dog.

• most behavioural issues are down to the owner, not the dog. Dogs aren't "naughty" - they behave how they've been allowed to behave.

• it's a very simplistic (imo) method of training and does nothing to address many of the underlying issues that are evident. So, what he says makes "sense" to a lay-person but does nothing to address the deeper issues the dog may have.

His methods are in my opinion confrontational, sometimes cruel, they are outdated and not supported by science. There are many qualified dog behaviourists who would have been better on the show. You can very often see obvious signs of stress in the dogs such as lip licking, yawning and panting which ideally should be avoided as much as possible.

Owners should not be encouraged to get in their dogs faces, shout or yank their pets around by the neck.

I agree @vanillaandhoney, I was shocked at how confrontational he was on a couple of episodes to be honest, but he has so many great reviews etc so I gathered he must be doing something right

@Newuser82

His methods are in my opinion confrontational, sometimes cruel, they are outdated and not supported by science. There are many qualified dog behaviourists who would have been better on the show. You can very often see obvious signs of stress in the dogs such as lip licking, yawning and panting which ideally should be avoided as much as possible.

Exactly.

I actually think it has the potential to be very damaging. Dogs who are continually put in stressful situations are at higher risk of snapping and biting.

The more your ignore a dogs' stress signals, the more they have to escalate their response in order to be heard.

There are many qualified dog behaviourists who would have been better on the show.

So how did he end up on the TV giving advice over a qualified behaviourist with certified credentials?

It's an awful programme, and it's awesome that people like yourself are questioning it. As previous posters have said:

• you see two minutes of predominantly punishment based training and then a 'fixed' dog leading to unrealistic expectations in the average dog owner. Would a parent expect immediate, perfect behaviour improvements in their three year old child, to illustrate.
• yanking leads and collars and slip leads are evidenced to cause neck and back issues
• punishment based training is evidenced to cause more stress, anxiety, aggression, fear and pessimism in dogs
• punishment based training suppresses behaviour problems rather than solving them, making the behaviour more unpredictable. For example, the rescue I worked in had a beagle who had been 'trained' by the delightful Graham, and had been repeatedly bollocked for barking at other dogs (a behaviour based in fear). Six months later, the dog was in rescue with explosive, unpredictable aggression towards dogs. He made it by the skin of his teeth but there were a few occasions we thought we'd have to let him go.
• his training method doesn't take in to account the emotional motivation of the behaviour. If your dog is barking or growling because it's frightened, then using vocal and physical punishers will back it in to a corner and ultimately make the behaviour worse. If I could have a pound for every time I've seen this happen. Owners need to tackle the emotion (or physical pain) that is driving the behaviour rather than just suppressing it.

I don't have time to look for it, but all the big dog training organisations and rescues signed a letter to the channel, criticising- with evidence- their continuing to give this guy airtime. People like him cause dogs to be euthanised, and I'm one of many who see it happen.

Look at training organisations like ABTC, APBC, PACT, and kikopup or Kristin Crestejo for much better and evidence based information. 👍

@MrsFluffyMuff

*Owners should not be encouraged to get in their dogs faces, shout or yank their pets around by the neck.*

I agree @vanillaandhoney, I was shocked at how confrontational he was on a couple of episodes to be honest, but he has so many great reviews etc so I gathered he must be doing something right

A lot of people have no idea about dog behaviour, though. They just see quick "miracle" results in 15 minutes and think it must be the right way to go about achieving things.

Your average dog owner will have had zero training in dog behaviour - they don't know about stress signals, the ladder of aggression, calming signals or anything else - and I think Graeme takes full advantage of that.

Take this weeks' episode where two dogs (I think a spaniel and a Jack Russell) were constantly fighting. He eventually got them to lie "calmly" in the same room, but neither dog looked calm to me. One was avoiding eye contact and panting (both signs of stress) and the other was rolling on her back (a sign of submission and also a sign of fear).

But the owners clearly didn't realise that, and just saw two calm dogs, and so they thought everything had worked out.

@MrsFluffyMuff

*There are many qualified dog behaviourists who would have been better on the show. *

So how did he end up on the TV giving advice over a qualified behaviourist with certified credentials?

Because it makes good TV.

'So how did he end up on the TV giving advice over a qualified behaviourist with certified credentials?'

I'd love to know the answer to this question too. It makes zero sense to me.

@readyforachangemaybe

'So how did he end up on the TV giving advice over a qualified behaviourist with certified credentials?'

I'd love to know the answer to this question too. It makes zero sense to me.

It's all about ratings. He's dressed as a charming English gentleman in a tweed jacket and turn up jeans. He's relatively good looking and appears to get good results.

Channel 5 don't care if his methods work or not. They just want to make money.

This is good for me to hear.

I've wanted a dog for three years. Getting more serious about going ahead but in the meantime reading books, investigating training courses / dog first aid.

I've never had a dog, so don't know how to recognise body language. This is one of the things that worries me, so I'm trying to research more.

I thought Graeme was good because he always gets results. So this thread is interesting.

I don't have time to look for it, but all the big dog training organisations and rescues signed a letter to the channel, criticising- with evidence- their continuing to give this guy airtime. People like him cause dogs to be euthanised, and I'm one of many who see it happen.

Wow, and channel 5 have taken no notice??? That speaks volumes doesn't it .

Take this weeks' episode where two dogs (I think a spaniel and a Jack Russell) were constantly fighting. He eventually got them to lie "calmly" in the same room, but neither dog looked calm to me. One was avoiding eye contact and panting (both signs of stress) and the other was rolling on her back (a sign of submission and also a sign of fear).

Yeah, anyone clued up on dog behaviour would see those signals straight away.

He gets on tv because his visible results are straight line, intervention to behaviour change, with little ambiguity.

Anyone who just wants to change a behaviour rather than take the longer path to understanding why the behaviour happens in the first place, or those who just don't know the difference, think his methods are great because the dog changes.

They don't wonder why, what it is that has caused the change or what the dog's long term response can be.

I have a Bullie, no way would I use any of his methods...
my little sod would just divert his 'naughtiness" elsewhere 😁

The only thing he does right us point out that the owners are the root cause of most of the behaviours seen.

I thought Graeme was good because he always gets results. So this thread is interesting.

This is why I was thrown off too. I thought i must be missing something. So I tried to find his credentials, but I can't find any other than ' he has 10 years experience '

@Jumpjumpjumper

This is good for me to hear.

I've wanted a dog for three years. Getting more serious about going ahead but in the meantime reading books, investigating training courses / dog first aid.

I've never had a dog, so don't know how to recognise body language. This is one of the things that worries me, so I'm trying to research more.

I thought Graeme was good because he always gets results. So this thread is interesting.

Look up calming signals, stress signals and the ladder of aggression - they are all things dog owners should know about.

Also, make sure any training courses focus on positive, reward-bases training and run miles from anyone who speaks about alphas, pack theory or dominance. Any mention of shock collars, prong collars and yanking dogs on leads should also be completely avoided.

The Facebook group "Dog Training Advice and Support" is as great place to start. Everything is totally positive and force-free and there are loads of free files on there - they cover everything from toilet training, to the teenage years, to pulling on lead, to resource guarding.

Good luck! :) I hope none of that comes across as being too preachy. I'm a dog walker and have studied dog behaviour - programmes like Graeme's are made for TV - they're not a realistic model for everyday dog training and a lot of his methods are outdated and potentially quite dangerous imo.

I didn't watch this week but have often had that conversation with DH. If our dog looked like that we'd worry about him, as well as the possible ramifications of making him that fearful, submissive etc. God only knows what those dogs do when they reach their limit.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I didn't watch this week but have often had that conversation with DH. If our dog looked like that we'd worry about him, as well as the possible ramifications of making him that fearful, submissive etc. God only knows what those dogs do when they reach their limit.

It really worries me tbh. I think it's highly irresponsible - both of Graeme to follow those methods, but also of Channel 5 for actively promoting them to the public.

Like a PP said, a petition was circulated to try and get him banned, but it was ignored (presumably because he makes Channel 5 too much money)

“So how did he end up on the TV giving advice over a qualified behaviourist with certified credentials?“

Because actually working on issues can take ages... and would be fairly boring to watch

They pick the cases by what will make a good episode btw, they were advertising on dog forums before they made it and it was really obvious that a lot of cases were too difficult for him to do, I assume he picks his clients like that too tbh, hence all the good reviews.

They were going for cases where the owners were pretty clueless about dogs and training , so the issues were things most people I know could have resolved themselves or that would never have happened in the first place...

All dog trainers have different methods that work for different dogs.

jumper as above. Read up on positive training and something called shaping.

My dog's breed is renowned for not being easily trained. Loveable clowns, mine.is currently lying down my back, snoring. But they are particularly 'unbiddable'. With patience and positive reinforcement he has even learned recall! Something some other Bullie owners find amusing !!

They pick the cases by what will make a good episode btw, they were advertising on dog forums before they made it and it was really obvious that a lot of cases were too difficult for him to do, I assume he picks his clients like that too tbh, hence all the good reviews.

Yep! I'm a beagle owner and he advertised on one of my groups - lots of interest but he didn't go for any case that seemed to suggest genuine aggression or problems. Most of the "issues" he covers are things like leash reactivity and separation anxiety - yes, they're problematic but they're not THAT complex to solve, really.

He doesn't shout. But its cleared up a lot of posts on here where people claim.someone is shouting. He is just firm, there is a big difference.

I think dog training is a bit like raising children. You have the attachment parenting types and those who don't think its harmful to leave your baby to cry sometimes.

@RedHelenB

He doesn't shout. But its cleared up a lot of posts on here where people claim.someone is shouting. He is just firm, there is a big difference.

I think dog training is a bit like raising children. You have the attachment parenting types and those who don't think its harmful to leave your baby to cry sometimes.

Hmm... I’d say owning a dog is like that, training isn’t, it’s more like teaching where there’s loads of research showing which methods make them learn more effectively.