Anyone else tired of poor ‘managers’ and ‘directors’ ?

[Confusedemployee]

A good decent manager, director or leader are so hard to come by. Why?

I’ve worked in countless offices, corporate, non profit etc and surprised by the number of entitled, arrogant and incompetent people in management positions. I’m based in London if that makes any difference.

Why are such poor managers tolerated and not given enough training in the workplace? It makes sense for an organisation least of all for staff well-being, retention and productivity.

Examples of bad management I’ve seen is zero direction or support for employees. Where you’re basically expected to figure out the job yourself, or given no support or resource on a project for example. When your manager is completely absent and go weeks without a proper catch up.

I’ve seen people being bullied, belittled not being developed, etc

I’ve personally had a manager deliberately hold me back in my career - when she went on maternity leave, senior management were so impressed with my work, I got a promotion without her being around.

There’s often no way of feeding back during appraisal time and no meaningful way of escalating concerns. But usually it’s obvious to most people when there’s a bad manager around.

🤷‍♀️

I work in a business school and my manager is a specialist is leadership and management. Truly the worst ‘leader’ and ‘manager’ I have ever met. No strategy, no communication, no guidance. Unbelievably bad. She has a sidekick who’s a micromanager who goes over everything in minuscule detail to hide the fact that she can’t do the big stuff. It’s like being led by The Chuckle Brothers.

Did anybody read the thread the other day (forget which one) where they were discussing another thread about how most women don't learning for other women? It was quite similar to this one (the linked thread that is).

'Like working' not 'learning'!

I found it

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3080265-Women-prefer-working-for-male-bosses

@sinful8 you'd think so... but no, they don't... we have some project managers to help manage huge deals, and every so often someone comes in as a "resource manager" for a short time before inevitably being needed elsewhere, but it's nobody's job to actually make sure normal deals are managed properly, staff are happy and utilization is appropriate other than the partners, who quite frankly couldn't care less. I've worked at a few law firms, including 2 of the largest global firms and the same issues with management are prevelant across the board.

Technical ability is not managerial ability. Too much importance is placed on the former when appointing managers.

It's because most workplaces promote based on the skills for the job they want you to do and do not consider whether the person has the necessary skills to be a good manager / leader or not.

I've seen some very senior people not tackle difficult individuals and sweep it under the carpet rather than have difficult conversations. When one person highlighted a very difficult and bullying senior director, her boss said he 'didn't recognise the person they were talking about'. Of course not, she wouldn't behave that way to you would she!

[quote Defenbaker]@KathleenTurnerOverdrive You hit the nail on the head there, over confidence gets them into management positions, but they sometimes lack intelligence and common sense.

I was lucky in my last job, where my line manager was a decent bloke who trusted me to just get on with the work, and we got on well. That didn't stop me being made redundant though... not his fault, but even so he could have handled it better.

Years back I worked at a place where the manager made a move on me. He was married and twice my age - I just thought he was pathetic really, so rejected his advances, then he never had a good word to say about me after that. He was good at buttering up clients and sucking up to directors, but didn't belong in a management position as he was too busy with extra marital affairs to concentrate on the job. He often went for long lunches which involved shagging his mistress in the back of his company car, and he used to return looking all pink faced and sweaty, wearing a silly grin and looking very pleased with himself. Nobody had any respect for him.[/quote]
Was that Boris?

Agree, I have one.

I also have a team, I purposefully break my back not to be like him.

He's so self absorbed that when we do catch up, he's always late and just talks about himself.

Throughout this entire wfh period he's never once asked me how I'm coping.

He never responds to emails.

At year end I do get the opportunity to feedback on him, however his appraiser is his long-standing friend, and the feedback isn't anonymous. Which makes it impossible to feedback honestly as you risk repercussions.

Sadly there's a lot of it about.

People who say all the right things get the job as manager but they have zero genuine people empathy so are rubbish managers and bullies.

Or they promote people beyond their competence or to get them out of the way because they are complainers or will complain if they don't get it.

Like the ones who are making people come into work at the moment because they cannot remote manage so presenteeism is key.

High staff turn over is ignored by the next level up so those poor managers keep doing it.

I think the need to speak bullshit to get promoted contributes a lot here.

A decent person who works hard is often not able to talk the talk in interviews. This is a common problem in my sector.

We have some astoundingly good senior managers, and some astoundingly bad ones. The only comfort is the bad ones move on quite regularly so there's always hope.

I work for a small business and the MD is a total shambles. No direction at all, incapable of making a decision, lazy, cannot multi task at all in any circumstance so if something urgent happens he is unable to deal with it, never communicates other than absolute waffle and truly bores the arse off everyone, is never prepared for meetings, but worst of all takes no responsibility for anything, constantly deflecting blame (that’s one skill he does have)

Our set up is strange, but how he is still in his job is beyond me. Not one person who works for him thinks he is any good, it’s the company joke to roll your eyes when you have to involve him in anything. A sorry state of affairs.

Because its a mateocracy?

im into a lot of sort of political leaders and ancient military strategy books and I occasionally make a mistake of buying one of these books thats aimed at 'business leaders and management'. Do they really read that stuff?

I've had very few good managers. Neither have any of my friends. Not anyone I know. I work in finance, accounts, and in this industry it's common for people to lack the social skills and empathy to be a good manager.

I agree with Thunderstorm about how they get there in the first place.

The best manager I know is actually my husband. He has worked at many firms and seriously at each one of his employees has told me he's the best manager they've ever met. At least 6 times.

I honestly don't know how this issue can be addressed. But I think it is a very real problem that does need addressing.

@user1471565182

Because its a mateocracy?

Yup. I'm a teacher and all those who have been promoted while I've been at this school have been those who say a lot without doing a lot/anything and are mates with the HT so that he thinks they'll have his back and not stitch him up when OFSTED come. Infuriating.

Actually, I have been promoted myself so not strictly true BUT I had to do the role unpaid for over a year until it got to the point where they had to give it me (they didn't advertise, just hung on as long as they could before making it permeant), while men in the similar positions are moved up after brief 'interviews' much more speedily.

I'm a partner in a City law firm. A salaried partner so just an employee. The equity partners who effectively own the business are obviously very results driven but as the expense of all else. This filters down to the salaried partners who are haragued by th EPs to get their teams to do more hours, send more bills.

The complete gulf is that they largely ignore whether staff are actually happy and supported. So people keep leaving, usually the best ones they saw as the future of the firm . The EPs are baffled, indignant and annoyed about this especially as it costs a lot to recruit and replace decent lawyers. There are also lots of incidences of people kicking off because they've been overlooked for promotions/bonuses because their expectations haven't been managed or poor decisions have been made (it's sadly common to see EPs deciding to save money give x a smaller bonus because "she won't be any trouble" then astonished at dealing with the fall out when x minds very much! Yes I have been x!). There are also sadly high incidences of people going off sick with stress and anxiety, often after telling their managers over and over that they can't cope with the workloads and expectations.

Perhaps most irritatingly of all they will criticise and harangue staff for no doing enough but there is no praise or acknowledgement for staff doing well. It's as if they think people will get "too big for their boots ". When I was made a partner and got access to the department stats I was astounded to find that I was the highest biller in the department most years. No one had ever told me. I had always been given the impression that i wasn't doing enough. There's an attitude of "you're lucky to have a job here".

I manage a team and I'm not the best manager (a massive introvert) but I think I'm doing a better job than most. I actually care about my team and making sure they are supported technically, developmentally and pastorally. They feel listened to and cared about. Their legal skills have developed because I spend time with them mentoring them. I encourage and support applications for promotion where appropriate. The retention rates on my team are very good and no one has stormed off on my watch. The EPs in my department are starting to listen to me a bit more ... I think it will take a lit to town the culture around though. Sigh.

Ah, let me reminisce ....

• The boss who hired me and put me in an office with no desk, phone or computer (this was the landline era), then blasted me for being unproductive. I told him I'd requested a phone line from the IT dept and he blasted me for going behind his back.

• The boss who lost his licence for drunk driving so many times, it made the papers. If any of the staff had sunk half the piss he did, we'd have lost our jobs.

• The boss who spent all day in his hermetically sealed office, who seemed to do nothing of note, but then was so busy and important he needed vastly more cyber-storage. (This was pre-cloud, when our system had limited space.) My IT friend inspected his existing storage and found it full of porn. Never mind, boss still got promoted.

• The boss who was promoted over me but mostly left me to run things while he took an office fleet car out on "appointments" all day, a few too many times a week. Fleet manager finally busted him taking a nap at home. The car was parked outside.

• Another boss who was promoted over me (but needed me to train him in the job -- yep, another one) went off on two weeks' leave without telling me but switched his phone through to my ext so that the avalanche of calls poured down on my unsuspecting ear.

• A boss who refused to take the rap for her own disastrous decisions, one of which involved her meddling with some finished, signed-off work and incurring the wrath of a client. She blamed the underling who had done the work a man who had won awards for his excellence and he was forced to resign. She trashed his reputation so badly, he had to look overseas for his next job ... while she was promoted.

Well, I could go on. These bosses were all in the same company, by the way. Don't claim all the bad 'uns for yourselves, my British friends. We in Australia have plenty of fuckwits too!

I’m now self employed pretty much entirely because of my experience with shit managers.

Yes! In my last job my manager was a weak and scared person - I had a real issue with another employee and I went to talk to my manager and she got all flustered and just said mmm hmmm a lot but did nothing. And I honestly saw her cry more in the 3 years that I worked there than my own family. Any tiny bit of stress she would go pale and start crying. Awful woman!

Reminds me of this tale:

A crow was sitting on a tree, doing nothing all day. A rabbit asked him, ”can I also sit like you and do nothing all day long?” The crow answered: “sure, why not!” So, the rabbit sat on the ground below the crow, and rested.

A fox jumped on the rabbit and ate it.

Moral of the story: To be sitting and doing nothing, you must be sitting very high up.

@peak2021

Technical ability is not managerial ability. Too much importance is placed on the former when appointing managers.

That said it's even worse to promote people for the sake of managing if they dont have any technical competency. It's amazing how many companies do it and have people managers or head of a department managing huge teams when they have zero clue what is involved, leaving people to "sort it out" when problems inevitably arise and later blaming them.

@peak2021

Technical ability is not managerial ability. Too much importance is placed on the former when appointing managers.

This is true. Management is often equated with being time served (I.e. how long you’ve worked somewhere or experience). Whereas what is really needed is leadership. You can be a leader without being an expert or even having tonnes of experience. The leader should be there to devise strategy, motivate the team, provide direction and support and get the best out of a collection of individuals. I think most managers have no formal training in leadership and would fail at it. It’s underrated as a skill in itself and most firms don’t invest any money to developing leaders. Which then breeds all sort of cultural issues, because the people are being so badly managed. Other problem is management roles attract people with egos who think they are good at it or desire power over others.

@honeylulu that all sounds familiar! Good lawyers do not good managers make! You sound like a brilliant manager and just what the firm needs ☺️

Ohhh, I have Theories

There's definitely the Peter Principle. And the pp who mentioned people being promoted for saying the right things/'talking pretty' was right. Also the manager being the person who's been there long enough that people keep saying 'shit, what do we do with Gladys? She's been here x years... I know! Give her a team to manage'

I'm convinced though that a lot of it comes down to management not being treated as a skill/competency. Having shit-hot technical skills in a role doesn't necessarily teach you anything about engaging or motivating staff, managing performance, delegating effectively, helping your team through change, building their resilience, helping your staff learn about the wider business context and understand where their role fits, and it teaches you bugger all about the employee lifecycle and what should be the absolute basics - make sure your team know what their jobs are, make sure they know how to do them, and make sure they are paid in full and on time. If you look at a lot of management job descriptions at the very most they usually ask for 'previous experience' - they don't ask for proven skills, competence, and they don't ask about any actual aspects of management itself. Companies end up recruiting the wrong people.