Sorry, but £80k a year in London ^really is^ a large salary

[nickymanchester]

So I was just reading the "Unpopular Opinions" threads and I noticed more than one poster saying that £80k a year really isn't a lot of money in London or the SE.

What with being locked down again and not having much to do I thought I'd have a look at the actual figures as I had no idea which side of that argument is correct.

For full time workers who work in London, the median (average) pay is £39,500 (men £42,700, women £35,800).

If a person is earning £80k a year in London then they are on the 87th percentile. Although, if you're a woman that places you in the top 95%

(87th percentile means that you earn more than 87% of all people - ie you're in the top 13%).

Of course, areas of London are very different so I split London down as shown below.

The practical upshot is that, well, if you work in the City of London then I guess you could argue that £80k isn't necessarily a large salary.

You might even be able to get away with this if you work in Tower Hamlets. But elsewhere - not really.

.............................................75th.......Gender

Area......................Median...Prcnt......Pay Gap
City of London.....57,361....89,492....27.9%
Tower Hamlets.... 49,728....72,254....20.6%
Westminster.........43,597....64,038....15.7%
Southwark............41,948....59,816....11.4%
Camden................39,837....53,950....20.9%
Hammersmith......39,676....54,132....14.9%
Islington................39,312....59,587....8.1%
Lambeth...............37,866....55,458....15.3%
Hackney................36,748....46,540....9.4%
Waltham Forest....35,651....45,552....23.5%
Hillingdon.............35,183....52,390....5.5%
Lewisham.............34,913....46,608....-2.5%
Brent.....................34,866....48,064....8.5%
Hounslow.............34,809....50,528....5.2%
Richmond.............34,726....47,070....25.4%
Kensington...........34,445....47,242....4.4%
Croydon................34,086....45,146....18.8%
Havering...............33,821....46,249....-15.0%
Greenwich............33,181....45,427....6.0%
Kingston...............33,030....49,150....18.7%
Haringey...............32,812....44,840....-11.8%
Newham...............32,292....49,618....-1.8%
Sutton...................32,167....43,898....-2.4%
Wandsworth.........31,938....45,786....7.0%
Bromley................31,777....44,824....10.7%
Ealing....................31,418....45,001....-6.0%
Merton..................30,607....48,381....-11.0%
Barking.................30,482....39,988....13.5%
Redbridge.............30,306....45,157....-5.7%
Barnet...................30,092....47,362....9.3%
Enfield...................29,895....40,586....11.8%
Bexley....................28,174....39,614....11.3%
Harrow...................26,998....43,077....17.3%

And for comparison with people outside of London:-

London.................39,556....57,975
South East............31,647...44,704
Scotland...............30,820....41,855
East.......................29,895....41,449
North West...........29,099....40,820
West Midlands.....28,730....40,186
East Midlands......28,704....40,004
South West...........28,605....39,645
Yorkshire...............28,023....38,865
Wales....................27,966....38,392
Northern Ireland...27,487....37,903
North East............27,113....37,872

All figures are ONS latest 2020 figures extracted from NOMIS. Gender pay gap is for full time employees only.

tinierclanger
It's both hilarious and tragic.
I did love the comments that suggest private education fees are somehow essential and if you don't have lots left after paying thousands on fees every term then you don't have a high salary.

Some people haven't a clue about wage profiles in the UK at all.

Well, yes you're right @tinierclanger. But I think that standard of living in London and SE in general is pretty poor for people on average or below average wages, and absolutely awful for a sizeable minority of people- as compared to other areas of the UK anyway. The lifestyle that 80k per household will buy in London is the kind of lifestyle that should be realistic and attainable for most people in a wealthy country like Britain. But sadly it isn't for many people.
Should add - i don't mean that people aren't poor or struggling in other parts of the country, far from it. Just that what you get for your money is very different. It doesn't change that 80k is a great salary and even for a large family should allow for a 'normal' standard of living, it just won't make you look or feel 'rich'.

Caveat - 'rich' is of course relative!

@pattypan and how much do they earn? Dod they buy a flat eith a mortgage and did they save up their deposits on their own? How long ago did they buy e.g. when 5% deposits were allowed?

£80k is a good wage. My dh earns about that and I earn circa £35k so we are well off by anyone's standards. I don't feel poor.
We live in a 3 bed end terrace in a shitty part of zone 6, drive a 20 year old car and usually have 1 UK holiday a year. However we both contribute to pensions, are saving for retirement and uni for our kids (who are primary school aged). We prioritise savings and overpaying our mortgage so I would never complain to anyone about being skint. It would be ridiculous.

There was one point when I had dc1, my dh earned about £30k ish and I was a sahm, objectively we were a bit skint then as we had no money for anything other than mortgage, bills and nappies, but people survive in London on much less than that so I am very aware of just how we lucky we are now and I try never to forget it.

You can't really afford private school fees on 80k unless you had a child late on in life &/or had help with house/rent.

The issue is not that 80k isn't a good salary it's the fact that there were huge spike in house prices & wages have stagnated.

I work with dozens of people in their 40s & 50s who earn 1m plus houses despite never earning more than 50k. One of me neighbours made 1m profit on their home when they sold cause they bought in the 90s.

In these discussions it's overlooked that for many professionals living in one of the world's great cities IS the luxury you are shelling out on. The situation is obviously awful for people, particularly lower earners, whose families are London-based, but ex-northerners, Scots, midlanders, etc. are choosing to sacrifice bigger homes and more disposable cash for the amenities of living in London. Same as getting more for your money in Warrington than didsbury.

I live in the NW and absolutely love London. The architecture, the history, the parks, the diversity, the culture. How you can walk for hours and see how what were little villages merge together into one whole while keeping their own identities. The weather. But the trade-off with the lifestyle I have here is ultimately not worth it for me. Clearly it's the reverse for many other people, like friends who visit and exclaim how we're able to live in a spacious house as opposed to the maisonette they have. they have done better than we have in their careers and I can't fathom why they live how they do when they could get great jobs in Leeds or Manchester and buy a gorgeous house. But they don't seem to want to leave London, so they must be happy with their own trade-off.

Rambling post, I know, but there is a tone of inevitability in these London posts which I find disingenuous. Also an implication that us outsiders just don't get it.

The main reason I stay in London is because both DH & I are Londoners. My parents are immigrants so we have no other links & DHs parent is in a home.

@Byllis your right and people forget there’s expensive parts even in Leeds and all the other cities (wages are usually less). Londoners seem not to know the phrase you live where you can afford. It’s all about choice.

Londoners seem not to know the phrase you live where you can afford. It’s all about choice

Eh? This is exactly what Londoners are saying! We buy what we can afford and know it to be much smaller / further out of town / lacking in garden, drive or garage than the same salary would enable in Newcastle, Nottingham or Southampton.

Yes it is

There is a large number in London that are earning over £150k I know a few have never earned anywhere near that amount

I earn less that London average though I live and work in London as many people I know

Reason the average is so high because there are quite a number of people earning a ridiculous wage

I live within my means (single parent no benefits) it’s a struggle at times

Everyone says people replying are missing the point posting about how much it costs to live in London relatively...

The reality is you can’t have an honest and realistic discussion about earnings if you don’t factor in cost of living?

Yes 80k is a very good salary, but what is the point talking about earnings if we don’t consider them balanced against cost of living. Obviously a lot of people replying saying it is may not really be on the salary scale of actually reaching 80k.

Sorry some people are saying that the point of the thread has been missed

Plus a couple on 35k each will bring in more than one worker on 80k.

It’s a huge salary regardless of where you live .

The main issue in London is the cost of housing whether buying or rent which needs addressing.
I have no patience with people who complain about commuting costs, people elsewhere in the UK have to commute too. Ditto childcare.
Other things in London can be much cheaper such as eating out, public transport, leisure activities (lovely parks/art galleries/museums)

I know lawyers who earn 1.5m a yr, that's a huge salary!

@RainingBatsAndFrogs

Londoners seem not to know the phrase you live where you can afford. It’s all about choice

Eh? This is exactly what Londoners are saying! We buy what we can afford and know it to be much smaller / further out of town / lacking in garden, drive or garage than the same salary would enable in Newcastle, Nottingham or Southampton.

Exactly.

However it is great living in London, especially when you are young. There's so much to see and do. I would never have wanted to live anywhere else. I love the countryside - but you are never far from the country in London, wherever you live. I can get to the Kent coast in an hour too.

I don't do much gadding about in town now though.

Rolly

There are only a select few rain makers at that level. Absolutely top level probably even more depending on lockstep etc. Guessing senior partners or global business sector head at magic circle or US firm and most likely complex litigation/dispute resolution or tax or possibly government advice like trade deals legislation work etc. Interesting to know as not many in this category. Top QCs a possibility?

@MustardMitt

Basically it’s great but not in a unusual rip off central London home ownership context!

In a nutshell. Think most people on here either aren’t reading or aren’t understanding your OP @nickymanchester!

The point about women @waydownwego is that we live in a society where there is a pay discrepancy between men and women . It’s relevant when the main audience of this forum is women.

Talking about what constitutes a good salary 'for a woman' implies that if you are a woman, you should be content to earn a good salary 'for a woman'. That kind of language doesn't help with the gender pay gap.

A salary doesn't magically become better or worse depending on what your body parts look like. That's what I take issue with - the insinuation that women should be comparing their careers only with other women. Hell, no.

@CuppaZa

80k in London or SE is not a large salary

It's as simple as @CuppaZa's post.

Anyone on £80k in London can afford a nice lifestyle, and of course, they're privileged, but they still have to make a lot of compromises, and those are compromises that someone on £80k in any other city wouldn't have to make.

A large salary is one where you stop making compromises because you can afford not to.

I was thinking the same. I live in the south west (in a very rural area) and I pay £160 a month

If our household income was £80k in London we'd move to another part of the country - we could not live adequately well for that income - others can - we couldn't - London is too expensive. Would prefer to live on £40k elsewhere. Apart from anything comparatively it would feel more normal.

Decent salary not large

Some people are very obtuse about this. It is, as OP as shown, an actual fact that £87k is a well above-average salary, even in London.
It is also many people's lived experience that that income doesn't stretch as far as they want/need it to, especially in London.
It is also generally the case that the younger people are, the more of their income is taken up by housing costs, again, especially in London.

Most of us don't feel as though we are comfortably off, even those of us who are not struggling. That's human nature. Personally, I think the fact that many of us are the first generation to be less well off than our parents (due, in large part, to housing/childcare costs) has something to do with it, but that won't be the case for everyone.