To ask if your child forgot how to use a knife and fork during lockdown?

[AtlasPine]

Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685

Ms Amanda Spielman from Ofsed feels this is an issue. I’m a secondary teacher so it wasn’t a problem we saw.

huh?

Tables manners should have improved with kids eating at home! Unless parents are complete slobs, it's a ridiculous point.

Past nurseries state schools don't police table manners.

It's very worrying if we start confusing school and parenting, it's hard enough for state school to be on top of education as it is.

No, but my dd (8) is autistic and she did regress in many ways. Her language and communication, at one point she was back to only communicating in basic sign language and animal noises. For a lot of SEND children their therapies and support was also stopped (lots hasn't restarted).

That said I support closing schools until they are safe.

@SlothWithACloth

How is that a school issue? What about all the dcs who take packed lunches and never use a knife and fork at school?

It's not.

Government just thought if they got their inspectors out there saying it people would side with them.

They underestimated the intelligence of the British public who realise children have English and maths lessons - cutlery use isn't a stand alone lesson and is supported for those on school dinners as a social support but only because that's human and normal!

@MotherForker

No, but my dd (8) is autistic and she did regress in many ways. Her language and communication, at one point she was back to only communicating in basic sign language and animal noises. For a lot of SEND children their therapies and support was also stopped (lots hasn't restarted).

That said I support closing schools until they are safe.

This is much more important than using cutlery.

cutlery use isn't a stand alone lesson and is supported for those on school dinners as a social support

in state school? Of course not! Children can eat with their hands if they want, as long as they eat and don't throw food all over the place, there's nowhere near enough staff to go round and teach them any table manners, that's not what they are for!

At best, the staff can run around helping to cut something, wipe spillage, open a few packs. With a standard class of 30, there's physically not enough staff at lunch time to deal with cutlery in most state schools!

I really don’t understand how children would have regressed into nappies by being at home either. Surely it’s in parents’ interest to keep them potty trained!

I was just about to start a thread on this. I heard a small business representative say this same thing on bbc news this morning. It's such a ridiculous statement. If they have then that is very concerning about home life and nothing to do with school. If that happened then I hope those children would have consequently been flagged as vulnerable children. I also love that now the government is asking Ofsted to make announcements so they dont have to be the bad guys or take responsibilty either way. This whole situation is infuriating. For teachers, parents and business owners.

The whole thing is a clusterfuck. Schools will end closing. Rates will rise, children will be expected to sit in classrooms with open windows and doors in sub 0 conditions next week. Is any of this even conducive for learning. Poor buggers hands will be too cold to hold a knife and fork!

I don't doubt that some children in my school forgot how to use a knife and fork. This isn't a sign of worrying regression though.

These are children who only ever use a knife and fork in school, because it is not part of their home culture to do so. They eat with their fingers, or with a spoon, or with chopsticks. Because the British way of eating isn't the only way that exists.

There were other regressions though. Especially for our SEN children. It's why I'm glad that the directive for children with EHCPs has been stronger this time. Local authorities now must continue to meet the needs of these children, while from March to August last year their EHCPs were suspended.

No, because I never relied on schools to teach my child basic social skills in the first place.

@Hardbackwriter hear hear.

I need to come off Mumsnet for a bit. So many gloaty, neurotypical, middle class people sneering at those who arent as adept as they are.

I cant remember a time I felt so lost at sea here.

@Solidaritea

I don't doubt that some children in my school forgot how to use a knife and fork. This isn't a sign of worrying regression though.

These are children who only ever use a knife and fork in school, because it is not part of their home culture to do so. They eat with their fingers, or with a spoon, or with chopsticks. Because the British way of eating isn't the only way that exists.

There were other regressions though. Especially for our SEN children. It's why I'm glad that the directive for children with EHCPs has been stronger this time. Local authorities now must continue to meet the needs of these children, while from March to August last year their EHCPs were suspended.

And the authorities where ECHPS are rarely given out? With parents who are too distressed or worn out to go to tribunals to fight for them?

My son has a disorder that will cause him life long problems and difficulty learning. I've got more hope of him receiving a nobel prize than an EHCP.

I don't doubt that there has been a negative impact on children but I'm not convinced it's cutlery and potty training related

@glogirl

That's a shit situation. Sorry.

My Father is from a country where people take food from dishes on the table communally. I wasn’t raised by him and only got to know him when I was a teenager.

I have wondered if this way of eating communally has been in some way however small of contributing to the spread of Covid amongst some BAME communities. I know full well there are other reasons just not seen any mention of this anywhere.

@SnuggyBuggy

Don't people have knives and forks at home these days?

Not if you go to some deprived households where "food preparation" means "opening a takeaway".

Of course it is a parenting issue. The point the head of OFSTED is making though is that schools are supposed to be a leveller, giving a start to those children who didn't have the same opportunities as the comfortable middle class offspring of Mumsnetters. Regressing in basic social skills such as the use of cutlery is merely a symptom of more important skill losses.

@C8H10N4O2

I think this is a weird thing to blame on schools

Everything is the fault of schools and teachers - didn't you know? The Thatcher government ran a sustained attack on public education for a decade, it was a good distraction from massive unemployment and the trashing of regional industries.

Simultaneously attacking and defunding education is a good way to protect and extend privilege for the over promoted mediocre of the type filling most cabinet seats at the moment.

100% this.

I am not one to blindly defend teachers and schools, but this is ridiculous.
Basic skills are down to parenting. Whether it is in your original culture to eat with a knife and fork, I would assume that as a parent of children living in the UK, you would have the awareness to teach them to use cutlery at home, maybe not for all meals, but at least enough so they can master it. That's being a parent.
My parents did not grow up in a culture with chopsticks, and yet taught me to use them (actually mum learnt just so she could help us). It's basic parenting. Teachers have a lot more on their plates.

"I really don’t understand how children would have regressed into nappies by being at home either. Surely it’s in parents’ interest to keep them potty trained!"

Isn't it likely that regression might be a signal of stress, either because parents are stressed- there is a pandemic on after all- or simply because of the change in circumstances? It is not uncommon for children to regress when a new sibling is born: might not a major change in routine like this also cause a similar reaction? Combined with not being able to see grandparents, some families even losing grandparents, some parents being ill.

My 12yr old generally refused to use them anyway. I've given up trying, it's one less thing to clean.

My 14yr old is still more than capable of using a knife and fork.

But parents who are able to pick up and cover these types of issues when school falls away could themselves lucky that they have the time and resources to do so.

Using a knife and fork?

Using cutlery properly is something that absolutely should not have been lost during lonckdown as it’s something that parents should be able Tod ea with, unlike long division, for example.

And at our naice middle class school, about half the children who were out of school during the first round of school closures had noticeable regression in their socia skills - how to learn, how to interact with others. This is mainly because when they were at home they did what they damn well pleased.

It’s a poor example and certainly not one I’d have picked. But I’ve taught in some very deprived primaries across north London (and some surprisingly tough ones in Herts) and yes, quite a few children would have regressed in this way. Ditto toilet training/personal care, basic social skills, speaking and listening etc.

I’m glad so many Mumsnetters’ kids did fine during lockdown but sadly this wouldn’t be typical of many of the less privileged settings I’ve worked in.

I don’t think she was criticising schools- more emphasising how important they are beyond academic education. We’re in an affluent area with lots of sahms. I’m sure a number of children ended up further ahead compared to where they’d been in school. I have no doubts though that some will have regressed massively. And that is the point really. Schools are needed to try and bridge that gap and to perform a social function as well as an educational one.

There will have been children in overcrowded flats getting insufficient exercise, children in households where they didn’t step foot out of the door for months, children from unstable homes where parents had mental health or other conditions that made it harder, children who I spent 90% of their waking time in front of a tv, children who went hungry etc.

My kids definitely regressed in terms of physical fitness because we haven't been as active as usual in the past 10 months for various reasons, not least because Dh and I are absolutely knackered all the time and the usual physical activities haven't been available and we've not managed to replace them with much. But that's about it. It's certainly not the schools fault, but I can't wait to have after school clubs open again!!!!