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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be surprised that there are such a strong socialist/communist-leaning attitudes?

40 replies

MsJaimeSommers · 02/01/2021 19:19

I'm not from the UK but it always struck me as a capitalist-leaning country, especially given that the Tories have been in power for so long. But the attitude to coronavirus - the idea that the entire country must sacrifice, in many cases sacrifice their own wellbeing or even their lives - for the wellbeing of others, is much more like socialist or communist related attitudes. Taxes are likely to go up a lot as a result of lockdowns but AIBU to think that now is the time to push them way up, as high as they can go especially for higher earners? It seems there's an appetite for it, and it'll do a lot of good.

OP posts:
Allispretty · 02/01/2021 20:55

@bp300

Unfortunately we are not a capitalist country but I wish we were. We are a very socialist country but the money is distributed to all the wrong people.

I'm not sure where you've been living for the last 10 years but I've never heard such BS in all my life

cardibach · 02/01/2021 20:56

@Warsawa31

Communism doesn't work it led to the death of 100 million people in the 20th century. Free markets and democracy are the best of a a bad bunch of ideas we have really - the U.K. roundly rejected socialism at the last election 🗳

That being said a pandemic is a health emergency and whether you agree with the governments approach to not once they started down that road it is going to lead to a massive increase in taxes over the long term

A milli9n people in a century doesn’t look bad compared to this figure attributable to capitalism.
To be surprised that there are such a strong socialist/communist-leaning attitudes?
Jezzashouldbe · 02/01/2021 20:57

Sadly op you are right people don’t value freedom as it’s all we have ever know and I believe that if we don’t wake up to the fact we need to defend our liberties if we will lose them. The previous government (may) had an authoritarian streak in a sort of nannying way.

Allispretty · 02/01/2021 21:03

@MsJaimeSommers

People seem to have learned that losing jobs and businesses is a small sacrifice, they seem willing to accept hardship if the overall goal is positive. So why not harness that? Not for a communist society, I agree that communism is bollocks. But for a society where people are willing to live on very little (but enough) so others can also have enough.

Because people are hypocrites they believe they are doing good for everyone but they are not as essentially what this is "a life for a life"
Save all the people from corona but kill all the rest through poverty, Mh breakdown etc

VinylDetective · 02/01/2021 21:05

The Tories are not going to put taxes up. They will squeeze the public sector in the name of “austerity” just like they did once they were voted in, in 2010

There’s going to be no choice. Thanks to austerity and the pandemic there’s no fat left to cut in already underfunded public services. Add to that the wave of unemployment that’s about to hit us and taxes will have to go up. Circumstances make this a very different Tory government.

Ginfordinner · 02/01/2021 21:10

@MsJaimeSommers

I should clarify that I live in the UK and am a higher earner.
I think that explains your level of surprise really Hmm

Are you a Trump supporter?

MaskingForIt · 02/01/2021 21:10

@VinylDetective

The Tories are not going to put taxes up. They will squeeze the public sector in the name of “austerity” just like they did once they were voted in, in 2010

There’s going to be no choice. Thanks to austerity and the pandemic there’s no fat left to cut in already underfunded public services. Add to that the wave of unemployment that’s about to hit us and taxes will have to go up. Circumstances make this a very different Tory government.

I would be delighted if you were right, ideally along with losing the triple lock on state pensions, but I will be gobsmacked if the Tories actually do it.

I think they’ll prevaricate until the next election and then leave Labour to deal with it.

Jezzashouldbe · 02/01/2021 21:10

Yes there is literally nothing left to cut. Furthermore Boris’ USP was that he wanted to be a bigger spender than his predecessors

TrailingLobelias · 02/01/2021 21:39

There's no income tax in socialism or communism because incomes are supposedly fairly distributed at source ie you only get paid more if you work more. You're thinking of social democracy.

sst1234 · 02/01/2021 21:47

Not sure if people commenting on public finances on this thread really understand fiscal decision making. Spending doesn’t just come from tax, if the govt wants to spend more, it can do other things - borrow or quantitative easing. Borrowing has certainly been leveraged in 2020 and cannot go on forever. Quantitative easing has been the tool of choice since 2008 and will continuum to be so.
However, so as to not create hyperinflation or even high inflationary pressures while leveraging quantitate easing, the govt needs to make sure that it can protect output and improve our trade defecit. That’s where it gets interesting, and global competitive pressures come into play. Inward flow of foreign investment, low corporation tax, less red tape for business and attracting companies to list on FTSE.
So the govt will be tested how it creates the right environment to keep quantitative easing going while becoming attractive to inward investment. Here’s the key point, all these conditions and options and are only compatible with the most stable free market economies, not crackpot socialist ones.

laudete · 02/01/2021 21:47

I believe you are mistaken. Historically, British stoicism has more to do with being an island than anything political. The more isolated the location, the stronger is the community - out of necessity. I think it's most visible in all remote villages and small islands - not just British ones. It doesn't mean people are willing to accept higher taxes. It's one thing to be kind to your immediate visible community; it's another to be generous to your faceless government bureaucracy.

Fuckingcrustybread · 02/01/2021 22:00

Push taxes way up, as high as they can go. You're having a laugh aren't you? 40/45% tax is the highest that people are happy with, go higher than this and you'll be in deep shit. Those that can, will legally move their money out of the U.K. and as more and more people move their money out, there will be fewer taxpayers so taxes will have to rise for lower taxpayers. I remember the heady days of 1974 and 83% tax, so for every pound earned 83 pence went to the Government.
Think that's fair? I don't. Tax them until the pips squeak simply doesn't work. Wealthy people will just take their wealth away from the U.K.

ChestnutStuffing · 02/01/2021 22:07

OP - I think what you are thinking of is collectivism, more than communism or socialism which is related but not quite the same.

Every society strikes some balance between what we require toward the collective, and what we say properly belongs to individuals to decide. When you too far in either direction is can cause difficulties, but there is a range that seems workable. Some societies also encourage people to naturally think more collectively than others.

In most western democaries we've defined some of the basics that belong to individuals. Rights around belief, speech, freedom of movement, bodily autonomy (for example in medical decisions), some property rights, and freedom of association being among those. They aren't identical everywhere but all are typically defined and limits have to be justified by strong reasons.

The pandemic has touched on a lot of these, and I would argue with very little serious discussion. There are mechanisms to restrict many of these rights in certain circumstances, but typically those are delineated and limited, especially by time. Disasters, pandemics, wars, are all examples, so this one fits in. But there has been little discussion over how long it would be appropriate to keep restricting people in these ways, or even just open discussion in terms of basic democratic principles. Even during the BLM protests, where that would have been a very valid point, I didn't see it discussed much in those terms.

But I would say that generally we have been in a period of increasing authoritarianism in most of these areas, particularly by many people who would consider themselves progressives - largely this is driven by the logic of identity politics. This is the same group that seems least inclined to be wary or even question covid restrictions.

But a lot of it is also very fear driven and I've seen any number of people who are locked into an anxiety cycle.

Justcallmebebes · 02/01/2021 22:13

If there was any social conscience the rich would not exploit tax loopholes and the Govt wouldn't provide them. Maybe start there

ChestnutStuffing · 02/01/2021 22:15

What would be interesting to see is whether people would, through this experience, look at the economy more in terms of productivity, especially around essentials like food or things that really add value like education - rather than looking at it in terms of GDP and the stock market.

I had hoped that might happen, especially earlier on. In fact, it looks rather like it will not and it will all be a boon for the already rich and already powerful, and cement the monopolies these people control even further.

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