To think the U.K. should have just shut the boarders in March

[Lardlizard]

Surely that would have saved the country millions

I would attempt to explain how the unnecessarily early prolonged loss of human rights is harmful to society

Would you care to define how "unnecessary" "early", "prolonged" actually work here?

Based on what evidence? It sounds like a very specific study.

I think so. Weirdly it was the one thing that the European and American nations were seemingly never willing to consider. But yes it would have saved countless lives and likely the economy would have done better than it has done as well.

I think it is easy now we have a vaccine to say we should have shut the borders. A vaccine could have taken years or not at all. Nobody knew. There is also a big difference between the U.K. and Australia and New Zealand and that is our proximity to mainland Europe. There is a lot of cross families and people around Europe. Shutting the borders would have been horrendous for them. People are living and working in different European countries. I work for a big global multinational and I have people in my team - young people - who are from Italy and France and Netherlands and Spain. I have friends married to Spanish. Shutting the borders would not only have been too late in February - it is also a completely unsustainable thing to do if you don’t know if or when there will be a vaccine. We are lucky there has been a vaccine honestly. The scale of this thing in my opinion (and I understand this is my opinion) simply does not justify the damage you do to people not being able to see family. And by family I mean cross border families. Especially without knowing even there was an end in sight. I think people who haven’t been abroad for years are unaware how some people live their lives as Europeans travelling back and forth, living and working between cultures. We are really interdependent.

As people say, the countries that did this to a greater or lesser extent - China, NZ, Australia - have relatively thrived.

Imagine what the US and the rest for the West would be saying about China if the mortality rate was the other way round (also factoring population) - ie, 1000 deaths in the US and 1 million plus deaths in China. Can you imagine the hullabaloo there would be about China government’s callous disregard for human life, particularly the elderly and vulnerable.

Yup.

Yes they should. The government is not very intelligent net though, so......

@Nc135
Shutting the borders would have been horrendous for them
Yes it would have been very hard for them. But more horrendous than half a million preventable deaths across Europe? I don’t think so.

think it is easy now we have a vaccine to say we should have shut the borders.
China was willing to take an almighty high to its economy in the first place to stop it in its tracks and save lives. Yes, some things they could do more easily and efficiently than us, but shutting borders is something they and a few others did which undoubtedly saved lives with no economic cost in the long terms (as it was offset by more domestic freedom and spending with the virus better controlled). They were right we were wrong.

I think so. Weirdly it was the one thing that the European and American nations were seemingly never willing to consider. But yes it would have saved countless lives and likely the economy would have done better than it has done as well.*

Oh, are foreign travel and holidays abroad a human right now?

Ah you see. It’s because of this. Some people think that people travel only to go on holidays. That is not the case as I have just said in my previous post. Lots of people travel not because of holidays but to see family and loved ones. My ex is Italian and took our kids and himself to have a Covid test yesterday so he could go and see his parents and sister for Xmas. He also has a girlfriend in Italy but stays in the U.K. to be near his kids. He regularly tests himself and sees his kids. It is not about foreign travel and holidays for lots and lots of Europeans. My DH lives in the Netherlands. I have loads and loads of friends from all over the world living here. It is weird people think people travel only to go on luxurious holidays.

They want border control for brown people and fishing boats. Privileged white people were exempt because they’re special and need to have their week in the sun. I judge anyone who travelled abroad over the summer very hard. Selfish, selfish people.

They had another chance to put in place structures and regulations when cases went down in summer. But did not do this.

They should all be put into the last group to be immunised as a punishment for their selfish behaviour.

Yes it would have been very hard for them. But more horrendous than half a million preventable deaths across Europe? I don’t think so.

Firstly you cannot attribute these deaths to borders not being shut in Feb. Secondly as I said clearly - it is MY opinion that it is not worth it for the other humanitarian issues that would have caused. You can have your opinion. I am just voicing an alternative.

They should have been but the public outcry wouldn’t have allowed it. People went nuts when Trump stopped air travel from China.

@Cam77 China didn’t shut its borders. That’s how it got here in the first place.

Every country in Europe should have shut its borders in March. I get that this would have taken more balls and forward thinking than the government’s of Europe collectively had. No easy decision to make for a continent so entwined politically and geographically. But it was necessary. Despite having the experience of seeing the horror which unfolded in China and Italy, the European leaders collectively chose the easier route/route of least resistance at virtually every turn except when they absolutely had no choice.

Tough big decisions to make but hundreds of thousands of lives would have been saved and trillions worth of economic damage. Leaders through Europe and America failed spectacularly compared to their counterparts in Asia and the rest of the world.

@Cam77 I am so happy I live in the liberal world and not in Singapore or China. Again my opinion but please do accept people have different views to yours and don’t want to be caged in. I agree this virus is not pleasant but having had it and many many people I know having it - yes it is horrible but not justifying all this alternative pain.

Nc135

And that makes what difference when people here are told they can’t see their family on the other side of the same city, never mind country? I think you need to have a damn good look at how the other half live here. I still know people who have never been abroad in their lives and who can’t afford to travel across the country ffs. Yes we should have shut the borders, which I can spell, and I said so back in March on here somewhere. It’s crazy the way poorer people are expected to make the sacrifices for the rights of the rich here.

Some places with v strict covid border controls (eg Nz, Singapore) did let people in on compassionate grounds (eg sick relatives) - it u would have to do strict quarantine at specified facility first. This is a good middle ground.

@Nc135
China fully shut its borders around March to protect its population and economy. Something which the European nations were not willing to countenance. Yes, it took China a few weeks to identify this new strain before alerting the world to how dangerous it was in no uncertain terms at the end January (which it published in the Lancet - in plain English).

What was the UK/Europe's excuse for failing to take any effective preventive action since February? The UK in particular did literally nothing for nearly two months end of Jan - mid March despite having the facts right in front of it.

I thought the same in February, I hope this is a lesson for the future. We are a relatively small island and could have contained this. It would have been harmful to the economy, but everything within our borders would be open. I doubt it would have been as catastrophic as the lockdowns.

I would hope that there is a group of people planning exactly how this should work if it happens again, especially regarding importing products. Logistics is big money, there must be a way to receive deliveries more like a relay race rather than people entering the country.

There has been an outbreak in Sydney. Panic shopping happening again there now.

Remember too there are traces of the virus being in the UK months before they knew about it. Spread was already happening. People still needed to work, people still needed to get food, either going out to get it or delivered (someone else's risk). Lock down was only ever to slow the spread, not get rid of the virus.

Considering how many people manage to get across the channel in a dingy, illegally. When would you consider opening the borders again, it would have to be when the world is completely covid free, otherwise it would just spread again. No food coming in from abroad then, either

@Pepperwort I never said you couldn’t go and see your family across the city. If you want to then go and see them. It isn’t illegal.

@cam77 I am laughing at China shutting its borders comment. We wouldn’t have this virus if they had shut their borders. I saw Chinese people travelling through Amsterdam airport all through the pandemic

I understand that many UK residents dislike people travelling into their country and feel others are bringing the virus in, which is happening but if you were to close the borders in, then it should be the same out. Here in Ireland there's many planes landing daily from the UK, we really had been doing well with our figures and it's inevitable that if borders are open people will fly. Our news channels report the UK figures and they're honestly scary. We've family travelling in from London, Scotland, Manchester to Ireland from the UK, I will imagine there'll be many travelling out of the UK this Christmas. So my point is, just a little observation from the other side that while you don't want people coming in there, we are also nervous of you coming here.