To be speading truth and information on an anti-vax group?

[baublesbaubleseverywhere]

It's quite good fun but at the same time supremely depressing.

I joined the group yesterday after someone on a local FB group directed me there to find some info to justify the (scientifically incorrect) she was posting.

It's British, all women / mums. And the majority of posts are people asking for information that they can share / use to argue their case about different vaccines being dangerous / poisonous etc, so they can persuade their mother / brother etc not to take them, and to justify to others why they won't vaccinate their children.

I'm answering the questions in their posts, but not with a they want / expect to hear.

I feel like Richard Herring must feel on International Women's day when he spends the whole day on Twitter replying to Tweets by men that say "but why don't we have an international men's day?" With "we do! It's November the **"

My friend messaged tonight saying she was worrying about the impact of the vaccine on fertility for her daughters. I've not even given it the time of day and just told her to give her head a shake. And in any case, school age kids won't be getting it any time soon, surely?!

YANBU. Break a hole in their echo chamber, you probably won't convince them all but you may get some to take their blinkers off (mixing metaphors a bit there!)

Richard Herring does that and raises money for charity in the process.

I've nothing against baiting the anti vaxxers but I'm not sure I see the point, feels like if you've got the time and energy to dedicate to making the world better there ways to get better returns than arguing with people for the sake of it.

Personally, I signed up to a local litter picking scheme (I'm still a generally shitty human, just one that hates seeing crisp packets in the canal)

I'm going to leave soon (or get kicked out!). One of the saddest parts was when I questioned someone and advised them to look for some accurate fact based info, and said that that it was the reason they'd joined the group, that there were not educated so didn't really understand it. She had joined it to find out what "intelligent" people thought...

It may be fun but you are wasting your time and are unlikely to change anyone's minds.

Years ago I tried to inform a protest group about the real story behind an issue. They were using only one completely false, nonsensical version as fact and refusing to consider the countless other available sources. I was someone with full access to the research and the people involved. I also studied that research area and could understand what it meant. I also had experience in explaining the science to the public in simple, easily understood terms.

I got nowhere. They believe what they want to believe and any resistance only retrenches them further in their misguided beliefs.

The vaccine will turn us all into zombies and it will cause the apocalypse!

Maybe it is survival of the fittest and we should just leave them to it.

@PandemicAtTheDisco I've just left. I know there was no way I was going to change anyone's mind. It passed a bit of time this evening, but I'm done now.

What "truth" can you be spreading? Do you know more than the vaccine manufacturers who don't yet know the potential negative effects of the covid vax (assuming that was the topic of discussion)? The facts are they don't yet know. People have a right to question the safety of something that has no safety record.

@TheDayAfter no, the group wasn't mainly about the Covid vaccine.

It was an "MMR causes autism" kind of thing.

There were a couple of posts about the COVID vax with misinformation.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts"

Oh god I was on the ' Nextdoor' App at the weekend, the local council posted their Covid Dashboard with erm you know the actual data of local cases! The crap that people were posting in response!
I kept going to type then stepping back and then I couldn't ignore it any longer so started to engage with actual facts and figures! The patronising responses - you know Izzy we're not all brainwashed!

And then someone posted that Chris Whitty and Patrick Valiance were on Bill Gate's payroll!!! I reported all their posts for Covid misinformation reasons, watched them get deleted and deregistered!
You just cannot argue with stupid!

I don’t understand why what you believe to be true is more true than what anyone else believes to be true. Where do you get your “facts” from that the people you are talking about don’t get the same facts from?

@TheDayAfter if you say the earth is flat and I say it's not, who's "fact" is right?

If I say that there is no scientific link between autism and the MMR, because there isn't, and someone says there is, even if there is no proof, who's "fact" is right?

And this is the scary thing. Scary because children are going to go unvaccinated and people will die avoidable deaths. That is the bottom line.

Would people find it more helpful if they read the scientific journals, research the facts and figures fully from all sources so they can compare and contrast ? Or would people find it better to just watch YouTube and hope the information is correct ? Lastly, would you let Joe blogs fix your car or would you prefer a fully qualified and trained mechanic to fix your car ?

Oh, @TheDayAfter, are you going to say "gotcha" in a minute? Or are you really taking me down that wormhole for real?

@TheDayAfter

I don’t understand why what you believe to be true is more true than what anyone else believes to be true. Where do you get your “facts” from that the people you are talking about don’t get the same facts from?

Hmmm years of scientific research and proven studies vs the facebook comments section.

I wonder which is more factual?

@Hawkins001

Would people find it more helpful if they read the scientific journals, research the facts and figures fully from all sources so they can compare and contrast ? Or would people find it better to just watch YouTube and hope the information is correct ? Lastly, would you let Joe blogs fix your car or would you prefer a fully qualified and trained mechanic to fix your car ?

The problem with the world today (or one of the problems anyway) is people think that insane ramblings carry as much weight as a properly qualified persons professional opinion. Sad, really.

I love baiting the antivaxxers

I've been trying to find out more about how to deal with misinformation in general – because let's face it, misinformation is the new way of doing business. When it's not about Covid it's about something else.

The best line I've seen about it is: "Don't treat the hit, treat the harm."

So, don't get embroiled in discussing the nitty gritty of the misinformation. Repeating it – even to rebut it – just boosts it.

Also fact checking is often useless.

Facts weren't how people came to those positions, and won't change them. Plus, people don't tend to respond well to being told they're wrong unless you do it very nicely and soothingly indeed.

Instead, help people move on from their feelings about the hit by showing them material which deals with their concerns (factual or emotional) without explicitly discussing the hit.

One example given was from the US election.
The hit: Trump campaign repeatedly claiming that Biden was senile and unfit.
The treatment: Biden campaign showed lots of footage of Biden bounding around looking fit and well.

I'm not sure what will work for your anti-vaxx group, but pictures of people genuinely being pleased to be vaccinated and information about how the short time-frame has been achieved (without adding, "This point has been used to create Fear, Doubt and Uncertainty") might help.

(BTW, like you, I am by nature a fact-checker, and feel very uneasy asking someone to believe me because I've shown them a picture which gave them good feelz. But since the Brexit referendum I've learned the hard way that for a lot of people, that is how they make decisions. So what other way is there to engage with them? )

Don't tis a pitty, it seems these days people listen to x down the pub and suddenly some people think they are the next fox mulder

@ethelredonagoodday

My friend messaged tonight saying she was worrying about the impact of the vaccine on fertility for her daughters. I've not even given it the time of day and just told her to give her head a shake. And in any case, school age kids won't be getting it any time soon, surely?!

[quote baublesbaubleseverywhere]@PandemicAtTheDisco I've just left. I know there was no way I was going to change anyone's mind. It passed a bit of time this evening, but I'm done now. [/quote]
No I wanted to hear all about your group

This doesn't have to be debated. Those who choose to take the vaccination in theory should be protected from those who choose to not take the vaccine, right?? Apparently people can be pro choice unless it involve autonomy over your own body and what you choose to put into it. I say, if you buy a lottery ticket and never win, don't risk it by mixing this christmas, and because nobody knows the efficacy of the longterm effects of a vaccine with for an illness with a 97% survival rate, that has only just become available, the wait and see approach is also a valid option. No matter how qualified scientists are, there is something called human error, and even one life lost or complicated due to human error, when it's your loved one is too much. This year has been shit, do what you can live with and mind your business when others are trying to do the same.

@NoDramaMama14 as I said, this group wasn't about the covid vaccine.

Persisting with lies such as the MMR causes autism causes harm.

Spreading misinformation about the covid vaccine is also going to cause harm and drag this awful pandemic on for even longer.

If someone chooses not to take the covid vaccine because they are concerned it's been developed too quickly, then fine. They are exercising personal choice and autonomy.
If that person makes a false claim about why the vaccine is dangerous, which then puts others off taking it, it becomes a much bigger issue.

I have no problem with people not having wanting any vaccine. Waiting to see what happens or when they are ready.

Obviously there are issues if not enough people take up vaccination. However you have the total right to say what goes into your body.

The issues are when people spread ridiculous social media about Bill Gates and photos of babies with dozens of needles stuck in them and hundreds of other total trash.

Not everyone has a good understanding that some of this stuff is made up. Not everyone works at a adult IQ. Some people are heavily influenced by social media etc

It is up to responsible people to point out if something is made up or factually in correct. Especially when it could cause harm or hinder medical help.

That and some times you just have to take the Mickey if it is too ridiculous.

I do love a good debate with antivaxxers