To think people are too evidence/science-obsessed?

[namechangegamee]

Of course these things are very important when it comes to stuff like politics, because we do need some sort of evidence or hard fact to make correct decisions.

However, I think that this obsession kills that little bit of magic in life otherwise. For example I love superstition, horoscopes and palm reading. I’m a majorly lapsed Catholic but I do still quite like bits of the religion.

Do I believe in any of these things? No.

Do I salute magpies and check my horoscope? Yes.

Why not? I think we don’t have enough of these whimsy little things in our lives, yet so many people think them stupid. I think it adds a little bit of fun to life. I think it’d be boring if everything was completely logical, or if we knew everything

Hundreds of years of human progress has been based on the scientific method. Sometimes science turns out to be wrong, but the scientific process allows for this, and as new evidence comes along the scientific consensus shifts. This is in contrast to religion and superstition, where beliefs continue in spite of clear evidence to the contrary and those who challenge the status quo may even be persecuted.

Hold fast to science and evidence people.

@meditrina

Nothing wrong with a bit of whimsy, superstition and intuition

Just don't let it get in the way of the issues on which proper evidence is needed

I remember a talk in which the researcher discussed how we use our intuition to draw conclusion, based on the available evidence, more so than we want to admit. We have quite a lot of bias and self-interest.

Intuition Is The Highest Form Of Intelligence

Our intuition is formed from more evidence than we realise, because it involves the subconscious and maybe even our evolved biology (hence the instinctive nature of intuition).

The BMJ recently wrote "In Greek mythology, Cassandra’s gift of accurate prophecy was accompanied by a curse guaranteeing disbelieving dismissal. Going forward we, as a species, really do need to learn to heed Cassandra and do better." Covid-19: why is the UK government ignoring WHO’s advice?

I was amused because it was a poor comparison for the BMJ to use as a persuasive tool. In the myth, Cassandra never got her insights from science or a scientific method; she was intuitive through a unique source (a divine gift from the god Apollo, apparently). Her ideas, although true foresight, sounded insane because they lacked any credible evidence. I think the point is that without reasonable evidence or a scientific approach, we are more likely to dismiss something unless new evidence comes to light.

I suppose it's also about being open minded? Maybe what you're saying @namechangegamee is that an evidence obsession can make us more closed minded?

I think it’d be boring if everything was completely logical, or if we knew everything

It's religions that pretend to know everything, not scientists! There are always more questions....

For instance - today in the news, after 50 years there may now be a solution to the 'Protein folding problem'. Job done? No, far from it - it may be the means to other ends, which will allow asking and answering more questions.

No. I value science and evidence. Neither of these require belief, THEY JUST ARE. In their absence, lunatic theories like Bill Gates wants to eat my children and Hilary Clinton is a blood drinking devil worshipper, can thrive. And, whilst I'm here, 'research' featuring the paranoid ramblings of right wing conspiracy fans, fuelled by Russian troll farms, and found on the Internet is NOT research in any commonly accepted form. And God did not put fossils here to test our faith. Bloody hell.

I say good morning to the magpies but talk shit about the bastards behind their backs.

I’m totally with you OP. Though you will get slaughtered on here.

I think there’s a huge amount out there our brain isn’t equipped to process and we can only half glimpse in other ways.

You might find this interesting. I did.

www.amazon.com/Laws-Magical-Thinking-Irrational-Beliefs/dp/0452298903?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The problem with palm readings , superstitions and horoscopes is that some people really believe in them and choose to live their lives accordingly. And if bad times happen, they will believe that it's their fault because they may have done something wrong or misread 'the signs.'

Science and Religion are not that far apart really. They are both different ways of trying to understand and explain our purpose and the world around us.

I think their is room for both the unexplained/superstition and science to sit together. I don't think it has to be all or nothing. There is still so much we don't know, have yet to work out etc. We are far from having all of the answers.

From another angle, my DS has taken an interest in senses that other animals have that we don’t. It’s fascinating. There’s so much of the natural world that we are entirely unequipped to observe and navigate.

Lots of people are still interested in those things and science based.

I salute magpies, say white rabbits, enjoy a good horoscope or tarot reading. Do people I know know that I do those things? No it doesn't come up because it's not a big part of my life.

Doesn't mean loads of people don't enjoy a bit of whimsy. You're relying on needing evidence of other people's behaviour and interests there.

Science and Religion are not that far apart really. They are both different ways of trying to understand and explain our purpose and the world around us

Well - you can test scientific theories, use evidence, get other people to replicate experiments, take observations and see if the theories hold true.

But for religion - you need faith.

@ErrolTheDragon "It's religions that pretend to know everything, not scientists! There are always more questions...."

Is that from real life experiences or just what the media portrays? I've noticed, especially over this year, that the Media have published unflattering stories about Poll: US believers see message of change from God in virus or how Non-believers less likely to die from Covid-19, research finds etc.

I totally agree that it is challenging when religious ideology is presented as non-negotiable facts or when the only evidence provided is a religious text (not everyone accepts that as a credible source). The bottom line is power, maybe? For centuries religions have been the go-to for facts and at one point they believed that theology was 'queen of the sciences'. Nowadays that seems strange.

I do remember reading this and thinking it was ironic, if true. "C.S. Lewis the best formulation of Merton's thesis that science sits more comfortably with theistic notions on the basis that Men became scientific in Western Europe in the 16th and 17th century "[b]ecause they expected law in nature, and they expected law in nature because they believed in a lawgiver.' In other words, it was belief in God that was the motor that drove modern science". " Criticism of atheism

I find it totally bizarre that some fully grown adults still believe in absolute nonsense like ghosts, religion, horoscopes, fortune telling etc.

It seems like a complete failure to apply critical thinking. There isn't a single shred of credible evidence to suggest that any of these things exist, so why people choose to wilfully ignore logic, reason, and common sense in order to go on believing in them completely baffles me.

I don't see it as being 'too evidence/science based' as that's the only thing that actually merits any credibility. To me, far too many people still put far too much credence in complete mumbo-jumbo and hokum. Too few people listening to evidence, science, reason, common sense etc

Is that from real life experiences
Yes, of course.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

I find it totally bizarre that some fully grown adults still believe in absolute nonsense like ghosts, religion, horoscopes, fortune telling etc.

It seems like a complete failure to apply critical thinking. There isn't a single shred of credible evidence to suggest that any of these things exist, so why people choose to wilfully ignore logic, reason, and common sense in order to go on believing in them completely baffles me.

I don't see it as being 'too evidence/science based' as that's the only thing that actually merits any credibility. To me, far too many people still put far too much credence in complete mumbo-jumbo and hokum. Too few people listening to evidence, science, reason, common sense etc

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

Perhaps explore the deeper reasons why that might be the case? If there's evidence that "fully grown adults still believe in absolute nonsense like ghosts, religion, horoscopes, fortune telling etc." then maybe explore why? Apply reason, curiosity and logic to understand, rather than judge, maybe? Once you know why or some root causes, then maybe more evidence-based science and reason can be communicated to those people in a way they can digest? Who knows?

This is interesting...
What’s So Magical about Magical Thinking? A new book argues that humans have evolved for superstition—and that it can provide some mental and physical health benefits.

I'll just leave Tim Minchin here.... :) I'm with him!

I must admit, I prefer fact and sound evidence.

@StillMedusa

I'll just leave Tim Minchin here.... :) I'm with him!

This is totally brilliant

Hahahahahaha.

No, I think the majority of people have no interest in or grasp of science and it’s a major problem.

I’m honestly amazed that anyone thinks people in general embrace evidence and science. Just a milllion miles away from my experience.

Oh Jesus.

Perhaps explore the deeper reasons why that might be the case? If there's evidence that "fully grown adults still believe in absolute nonsense like ghosts, religion, horoscopes, fortune telling etc." then maybe explore why? Apply reason, curiosity and logic to understand, rather than judge, maybe? Once you know why or some root causes, then maybe more evidence-based science and reason can be communicated to those people in a way they can digest? Who knows?

You can't rationalise something that is entirely irrational. There's no point in trying to apply logic to understand something that is entirely illogical.

You try it with asking a simple question like 'why do you have faith?', and you get responses along the lines of 'I don't know, I can't describe it, it's just a feeling' and so on. How are you meant to make head or tail of that? It's inherently illogical, irrational, and inexplicable, hence why I have no idea why it's actually a 'thing' to begin with.

"I saw a shadow, felt a presence. Ooooohhhh! It must be the ghost of my dear old grandma!!!!"

Where's the logic in jumping to the conclusion that the first, and obvious answer, is paranormal activity, despite the fact that there is not one single credible shred of evidence in the entire history of humanity to suggest that such things are real? How can you even debate with people that take these things seriously, never mind attribute literally anything that can not be explained to 'ghosts', 'spirits', 'presences', etc.

It's impossible to engage with them on any sensible level, because they inherently lack the requisite sense.

Science and Religion are not that far apart really. They are both different ways of trying to understand and explain our purpose and the world around us.

The difference being one is based on observable, repeatable, demonstrable evidence, and the other, well, it's based on nothing whatsoever really, hence why there are so many conflicting, contradictory, and mutually incompatible religions the world over.

They're miles apart. Polar opposites in fact.

I think their is room for both the unexplained/superstition and science to sit together. I don't think it has to be all or nothing. There is still so much we don't know, have yet to work out etc. We are far from having all of the answers.

Yet religion invariably attempts to provide all the answers, with none of the legwork required to actually justify them.

"Show your working?"

"err God did it".

Excuse me for being 100% sceptical.

Hi Op I get you where you are coming from.

Really good,thought provoking thread..(wish I had thought of this myself.

I am finding reading Posters threads intriguing too.

My take is science is obviously very much Analytical evidence based work in progress,its intriguing and is like magical,(think of doing chemistry experiments with Bunsen Burner) baffling,Wondefull.

Also instinctive things can be exactly the same way too, minus being able to see tanagible stuff) as a scientist I amagine they use their intuition with scientific experiments combined to know what feels right too.

Its quite interesting for e.g the scientist who invented the chemistry perodioc table left one element out,but he instinctly knew there was one element to the this, but he did not know precise know what it was..

I mean the natural wonders of the world and nature with its many
diversitys of life forms, is a combination of science and magic too to look at ,
think of the northern lights pheromona, and how the moon governs the tidal systems, our menstral cycle,even how living creatures migration,breeding and even how plants,fruit and vegetables grow..

Real life I agree is stranger than fiction..
Such as being able to tell where water channels etc or chemical by divination such as ancient method of scrying rods.

Also intuition is something we share with animals friends such as instinctly knowing if something a suitation or a person we don't know is "off",dodgy shady etc..

I am also into watching,reading science but also into spiritualism ,reading pscomentry, reading spiritual cards palm reading etc,
Life would be too samey predictable if I didn't .

I like the balance/combination of mystery intrigue,intuition and science

Its healthy often to be a healthy skeptic as opposed to jaded/cynical skeptic to internet stuff tho.

As someone how used to be a scientist, I still find it amazing how it all 'fits' together. All the biochemical pathways, the receptors, how it all connects and works - a simple cell is incredibly complex and when it gets to a whole body, it's amazing.

There are plenty of things that can't be explained. Yet. There is still so much we don't know yet. We can't explain. Yet. Science still has lots to learn and there are many more discoveries to make.

I am quite embarrassed to admit this but up until the ripe old age of 45 I didn't even know what critical thinking and critical analysis were! It turned out to be a rather handy process.
I've always considered myself to be quite intelligent too. I have been insufferable during covid challenging nonsense on social media with my new found skills . I've seen propaganda which has been posted and I've dug out the original study and posted a 'well, actually if you look at the study...'
I just cannot believe that it took until university to be taught this and not everyone at university is taught depending on their course. Why is this not taught in schools?