Philip Green

[Baileysforchristmas]

AIBU to think Philip Green should put his hand in his pocket to help his staff who will now loose their jobs? Especially when I have just read he gave his wife 1.2 billion, which she paid no tax on because she lives in Monaco

2005: Arcadia pays out a £1.3billion dividend, £1.2billion of which goes to Sir Philip's wife Tina, who lives in Monaco so does not have to pay UK tax.

I hate what has happened to Arcadia.
I am no fan of Philip Green.
I am very glad we have @Iamthewombat contributing on this thread.

One question to all though... Philip Green is not “new news”. The low wages, poor conditions, lawful tax avoidance. How many of you made an active choice not to shop from Arcadia group stores, even if it cost you more to do so?

Perhaps some of the young females who have worked directly for him over the years might like to confirm as to whether he has done anything illegal in his behaviour to them!

None of his wealth is in his name, they can't get what he technically doesn't have.

France must be devastated.

At the exit of one company, no. At the exit of 100,000 companies? Maybe they would be a bit upset, or at least the French treasury would be. It’s not just corporate taxes, but transaction taxes (eg VAT) and employment taxes that would be lost.

If that happened in the U.K., ie regulations increased to the point that enterprise was discouraged, would you see that as a good thing? A load of people, mostly women, will lose their jobs with Arcadia and Debenhams over the coming months. Implementing knee jerk new laws because we don’t like Philip Green isn’t going to help them find new jobs, is it?

Perhaps some of the young females who have worked directly for him over the years might like to confirm as to whether he has done anything illegal in his behaviour to them!

Excellent, let’s have a witch hunt. That will help.

@DameFanny - it’s not a pretence that Tina Green is the shareholder. She is. Tax treatment follows the legal treatment generally and if she wasn’t the legal owner it wouldn’t work.

Also he hasn’t “asset stripped” anything. The pension funds have had their liabilities increase over the years but their assets have not kept up. They have been funding them but it’s defined benefit pension schemes are very expensive to fund as they need to pay pensions for decades and decades (and current acturial assumption for fund growth are very conservative). Pretty much every defined benefit pension scheme has a huge deficit for that reason. It’s also why they are not offfered any more in the private sector- they bring businesses down.

Just to be clear, we are talking about historic defined benefit pension schemes. The employee contributions have not been removed or even mismanaged. It’s simply that they were tiny to begin with in contrast to the huge liability that is a defined benefit pension obligation. That’s why the employer has to pay more and more and more for pensions for employees, most of whom have long left the business. It’s a drag on a business which newcomers to the market (like bohoo etc) don’t have.

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@DameFanny - it’s not a pretence that Tina Green is the shareholder. She is. Tax treatment follows the legal treatment generally and if she wasn’t the legal owner it wouldn’t work.

Also he hasn’t “asset stripped” anything. The pension funds have had their liabilities increase over the years but their assets have not kept up. They have been funding them but it’s defined benefit pension schemes are very expensive to fund as they need to pay pensions for decades and decades (and current acturial assumption for fund growth are very conservative). Pretty much every defined benefit pension scheme has a huge deficit for that reason. It’s also why they are not offfered any more in the private sector- they bring businesses down.

Just to be clear, we are talking about historic defined benefit pension schemes. The employee contributions have not been removed or even mismanaged. It’s simply that they were tiny to begin with in contrast to the huge liability that is a defined benefit pension obligation. That’s why the employer has to pay more and more and more for pensions for employees, most of whom have long left the business. It’s a drag on a business which newcomers to the market (like bohoo etc) don’t have.[/quote]
This doesn't tell the whole story. Employers were allowed to take contribution holidays from their part of DB scheme payments. Many workers were enticed into businesses and encouraged to make their own contributions for their "guaranteed" pension in future. It's the not the workers' fault that successive governments have fucked up pensions so much and that investment returns and interest rates are in the toilet.

Now the pensioners in the scheme will have 10% of their entitlements removed through no fault of their own - and to that extent they have been "robbed".

Philip Green (and there are plenty like hime) could afford to help these people and still retire in luxury.

I don't know why some people are so keen to promote systematic bandit capitalism which only ever benefits a very few.

@DynamoKev - total rubbish. The members of the pension scheme have paid a pittance for huge benefits which have to be met by their employer. They have not been “robbed” at all, quite the opposite. One of the main reasons, if not the main reason, that defined benefit pension schemes are so expensive is the overall general increase in life expectancy. That’s generally a good thing. I don’t believe there is any particular merit in your claim that “successive governments have fucked up pensions so much”. What are you saying you think they did that they should not?

So many people willing to shill for the billionaires that wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. What's that about?

You are funny. Anyone who doesn’t want to join the mob with flaming torches calling for the head of Philip Green is ‘shilling for billionaires’.

Tell me, do you think that laws should be disregarded for billionaires? How about people who aren’t very nice?

Do you think that inter-spouse transfers should be legislated against?

Should Britain invade Monaco because we don’t like their tax laws?

Should shareholders be pursued for pension liabilities stretching fifty years into the future?

As a poster wisely noted upthread, be careful what you wish for!

I used to work for Arcadia head office. When times were good, we splashed money around like it was water. Expensive brand conferences, trips away. Yes we were doing well, but the brands stayed the same, they didn't evolve.

Successful company spends money on conferences and team building shock.

@WitchesSpelleas

How do you propose to address this? Do you think that CEOs should be paid the same as people working in the shops?

We need a law limiting the multiple by which the salary of a company's highest paid staff member can exceed that of its lowest.

For listed companies the level of pay for executive directors is subject to high levels of scrutiny by shareholders who can and do vote against remuneration policy which rewards exec directors at levels higher than the workforce. Arcadia is a private company though and its shareholder is Lady Green.

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@DynamoKev - total rubbish. The members of the pension scheme have paid a pittance for huge benefits which have to be met by their employer. They have not been “robbed” at all, quite the opposite. One of the main reasons, if not the main reason, that defined benefit pension schemes are so expensive is the overall general increase in life expectancy. That’s generally a good thing. I don’t believe there is any particular merit in your claim that “successive governments have fucked up pensions so much”. What are you saying you think they did that they should not?[/quote]
I'm really not sure why I am bothering to answer - but people were promised a retirement on given terms.

The people like Cayrol turn up and say "sorry (not sorry) you fuckers are too expensive and it's all your fault".

Governments have mucked around too much with pensions - meddling in stuff that didn't need touching but failing to act on other issues.

When I started work employers could compel you to join their pension scheme.

That was swept aside by Thatcher who also fucked about with NI and contracting out in an attempt to privatise pensions and get out of SERPs.

Gordon Brown famously interfered with dividend taxation on pension schemes.

Fast forward to now and the government tells employers they have to automatically enrol people in pensions. We've come full circle.

If there's one thing a pension you contribute to should be it's a promise - not just for someone to come along and say "bad luck, you lost, but Philip green gets to keep his yacht (and his massive pension).

I can't believe you're dismissing the so imperiously the contributions made by the workers to the pensions they were promised as just so much insignificant chaff - it's no wonder slash and burn capitalism is winning with such sycophantic cheerleaders.

@DameFanny

So many people willing to shill for the billionaires that wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. What's that about?

Yeah - I don't get that - but it's a powerful feature in why the UK is less and less of a meritocracy - which is the opposite of the dream I was sold growing up.

Philip Green paid £840m for Arcadia when he bought it.

If there's one thing a pension you contribute to should be it's a promise

For defined benefit pensions, maybe, but not for defined contribution pensions. Who do you think should guarantee those?

not just for someone to come along and say "bad luck, you lost, but Philip green gets to keep his yacht (and his massive pension).

That’s what the pension protection fund is for. Arcadia will have had to pay into that, like everybody else.

Anyone saying that he didn't Rob the BHS pension fund and didn't do anything illegal, needs to read this.
www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/0e291562-0d52-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515
While BHS was in profit, he took massive dividends plus management fees. When BHS was making a loss, he increased those management fees. Plus he charged BHS high rents throughout.
If financial analysts look at Arcadia, they'll see a similar pattern of Green's wife taking enormous dividends when in profit and then both bleeding it of funds afterwards, with a lack of investment.
Scum. Karma has its work cut out with these two.

Reprehensible is not the same as illegal!

Philip Green hasn’t invested in the businesses, he just bleeds them dry and lies on the beach and his yacht contributing zilch to anyone. He’s been confirmed by many people he’s worked alongside as a bully and sexist pig. To expect someone with a character like this to actually step up and help anyone is pointless. He really doesn’t give a toss.

Is there any chance brands like Dorothy Perkins will be able to keep stores open?

@SomelikeitHoth

Is there any chance brands like Dorothy Perkins will be able to keep stores open?

I wouldn’t be surprised if JD sports make a bid for topshop/top man without the other brands. Jd were in talks to buy Debenhams (fallen through) the topshop/man brand fits well with the JD customer profile & would be an easy fit for them - you can imagine a trainer/JD section fitting easily into existing topshop stores. Brands like Dorothy Perkins/Wallis/Burton I’m not so sure - Primark do the same but better/faster/cheaper than all of them. Evans is an interesting brand, plus size is a growing market (no pun intended there) it’s under represented on the high street & not in competition with primark but it’s clothes are generally terrible! A genuinely good plus size retailer would do well on the high street but nobody seems to have managed to produce such a thing.

@DynamoKev - are you suggesting the pension deficit was due to Gordon Brown’s changes to pension taxation?

Businesses shouldn’t be forced into bankruptcy because of a pension commitment made 40 or more years ago. As I said the employee contributions are a tiny amount of the funding these schemes need. Employers shouldn’t be forced to under investigation in their current business and employees because of pension promises made decades ago.

It’s not unusual for businesses to pay dividends when in profit even if they have pension deficit. No one would invest in businesses if they didn’t. And that would be bad news for all our pension funds who invest in stock markets.

@DianaT1969 he didn’t take any money out of the pension funds in BHS or Arcadia. That’s a fact. He also made substantial contributions to the funds to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds. It’s normal for business owners to take dividends. He charged market rent as any landlord would do.

These businesses were successful for decades but now haven’t adapted to the market. They have been bankrupted by some extraordinary circumstances. That’s life and business. Pretending it’s all because Philip Green is some sort of criminal is not contributing to the debate.

It’s only legal because rich bastards use their wealth to influence policy and elections and lobby for laws in their favour.