To expect primary schools to reach out to boys?

[onebadmother]

This is a genuine question - I feel very uncertain about this and about what I want to do about it, and I'd really appreciate as much objective advice as poss.

DS is in Year 1, and since reception has seemed utterly unengaged by school. He frequently complains of being bored - tho I know this might be bcs it gets a reaction from me - and (from the very little he tells me about his day) it sounds like the things they're learning are things that we've talked about at home a couple of years ago.

But a bigger worry is about how schools deal with boys in primary.

Tbh before I'd had kids I totally despised the 'boys and girls are just different' argument - been a feminist since I was 13. But watching even my not particularly rough and tumble, clever, sensitive boy cope with the last 2 years,I've changed my mind.

Almost all the boys seem like grenades with the pin still in (just) at home-time. Like they've been caged, and suddenly set free. And the girl's just don't seem to feel that.

Watching DS run around the playground after school bellowing like a character in Apocalypse Now, and hearing the boredom he expresses, and the fact that his teacher says she has to work really hard to get him to sit down to do the boring stuff - maths, writing - really worries me.

I worry that they don't make allowances for the fact that boys, from my observation, seem to have a shorter attention span.

Or that many of them don't like sitting down and drawing/writing/doing crafts.

And I really worry that the topics they do are approached from a girl-centric (!) position - eg. Nature topics are flowers, not predators/volcanoes. That all the scary (and therefore exciting) stuff has been excised - and it's all been (I can't believe I'm writing this) emasculated.

I know that reception and yr 1 has to be about making them sit down and work, to some extent. But I don't think this is simply a logistics problem - ie. how to crowd-control a 30-strong class. I'm beginning to feel that there's an institutional failure to include boys and their needs.

Surely there's a way to educate that accepts some of boys' limitations - and plays to their strengths. And surely, after 30 years of child-orientated education, this is an issue that's come up before?

When I was 19 I would have said - so what? maybe the balance is finally being redressed. But now it's my boy, and I can't bear it.
Am I going mental?

no you misunderstand me juuule - I said alienating bcs I feel that's more or less what ds's school curriculum is doing, and I don't like it. Tut I don;t know enough about it to suggest a different way of doing things. Thought you might have worked out a different way thru experience, that's all.

Just being devils advocate here but what has changed? I don't think primary school makes chidren sit still and work for any longer than when I was at primary school 40 years ago - if anything , things were much stricter then. I wonder whether the 'excess energy' thing is because far too few children walk to school and get sufficient exercise at the beginning of their day.
To the Op - please don't think I don't sympathise ( I do )but I agree with some of the comments about taking care not to generalise. I can think of a number of boys who have no problem with style of teaching/ attention span and I can also think of a number of disruptive girls. Perhaps the focus should be on why the boys who cope well do so and if there are any patterns /differences compared to those who don't.
I admit I don't have a son but I do have 6 nephews and none of them seem to struggle with the school/learning environment and 4 very different schools are involved.

2bamum - wow. any idea what the programmes to pull boys in actually involve?
Sport at lunchtime sounds like a great idea (tho prob not for my partic ds who doesn't 'get ' the whole idea of sports and rules (and also still can;t bear losing..)

wheresmysuntan - that's my point! Nothing has changed, as far as I can work out. It wasn't working 30 years ago for a significant number of boys, and it still isn;t working 30 years later!
Think how many of our DPs/DHs talk about being totally alienated at school, and loathing it, being humiliated by it, and therefore f*ing up? I know that women can feel the same, but I think more men do??
\

Fair point!
Mind you, most of the men I know really didn't have those sort of problems. DP was bored initially at school but teacher realised he was bright and needed stretching. I think they let him work with older children some of the time (eg. for maths). What I think is true now is that teachers aren't allowed to use their initiative and 'bend the rules' - and I do think 30 in a class is still too many.
I have to admit though that ( as you hinted at in your first post) part of me does feel that it is not entirely a bad thing that the education system (generally) suits girls because everything else will be so much harder for them than the boys. We still don't have equal pay ,the glass ceiling is very much there and I don't know any men who had their education regularly interrupted by cripling period pain.

obm not really but I shall try and find out....
I accept the sport can be tricky for the non-sporty but I think a lot of it is basically exercise and running energy off, so it includes frisbee and circuits and 'skills' throwing,catching, kicking not just games of football which are great for those that love football but hard for the rest.

thanks 2b
off to bed - thanks a lot everyone for lots of very good points.

Tell you what's been good - talking to people whose kids aren't at school wiht mine! I have a couple of v good friends there - but they have (lovely) daughters and I feel like I'm kind of undermining them by complaining..
I'll check in tomorrow to see if anyone has had any more inspiration!

I would definitely agree with those who say that children start school too young. This is particularly the case for boys who aren't used to sitting still - girls seem to be want to sit and draw or do crafts. Neither of my boys can be convinced to pick up a pencil unless they absolutely have to, let alone do it for fun.

The early years of school as a matter of necessity have to focus on fine-motor skills and tasks which require a child to sit still. It is a basic requirement that all children learn to read and write first because that is the basis of all other learning but little boys of 4 are often not ready for that. Their fine motor skills aren't up to it. They need a more active approach to learning which is probably why DS1 loved Yr R where they got to do Lego and play in the sand pit and move but really struggled in Yr 1 where he had to take the more academic approach. He took a while to settle although he did in the end.

I think we are lucky that DS1 have been to an outstanding infant school who have made the effort to match teaching styles to the children and they have made the effort to make the topics more interesting to boys (I am thinking particularly of the history and science projects). The teachers let them read non-fiction as much as possible. It is still biased to girls rather than boys though

However, DS1 isn't really a rough and tumble boy, he is happy indoors reading and playing computer games and gets bored if forced to play outside for too long. I am more worried about DS2 who is 4 and who has not yet started school (missed going this year by 14 days - he's a September baby). He is still at playgroup and spends most of his time outside running around with the other boys. I am just glad that he will be almost 5 when he starts school as he won't enjoy being 'caged' in a classroom and I foresee problems, despite the fact he is seemingly very bright. It worries me. I don't know what the answer is other than delaying school until they are 6 but that would be a massive overhaul of the education system and I can't see it happening when the government are trying to force children into structured education at an ever younger age.

I read an interesting article a while ago called The Fragile Male that might shed some light on the differences between the genders

What an interesting thread.

I'm a teacher and have been aware for some years of the feminisation of our curriculum and teaching styles.

At my last school, all staff were expected to make a deliberate effort to engage with different learing styles and to start, right from Nursery, to help children recognise how they learn best.

Are they active learners who need to be able to stand up, move around and manipulate objects and materials...

Are they learners who work best on their own in relative quiet...

Do they enjoy being in competition with others...

Do they work best when talking with others...

Once you (and the children) know about the learning styles within a class, the challenge is then to accommodate them all!

It's not an easy job as I'm sure you appreciate, and you can never suit all styles, all the time. However, it is possible over the course of a day or a week to hit most of them. By KS2 when children are generally more independent, it's definitely possible to get them all far more readily, by presenting children with a challenge or project, and then grouping them according to learning style. It's then up to them how they investigate, problem solve, communicate and evaluate it. It is also possible to do this in KS1 and Reception, although with a little more support.

One of the big problems in Primary schools at present is that many boys work best when there is an element of competition - something many schools have moved away from.

This is one reason I love my ds1's primary school as they seem really clued up to this effect and cater for it well.

The main thing is that from reception onwards they all go on something called Forest School where the activities are child led, outdoors and they get to do amazing stuff like learn how to safely use tools and fire safety etc. The teachers say that in particular they've seen boys blossom as they do best out of the classroom, and they treat the teachers more like colleagues during activities - often giving them the chance to discuss what they're worried about or having problems with. I think it's a Scandinavian idea.

But in general, they do seem to translate that awareness back in the classroom with some great topics and implementations. He's in Year 2 and for the castle topic they're learning how the portcullis mechanism works and get to make one. They've also got an Aztec topic this year (nice and gory!) and get to make a volcano. They've got loads more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

Great for boys, and the girls really seem to enjoy it too.

When we first went around the school, we were a little concerned because it was all open plan with curtains separating and it seemed so noisy. But when we went to look round some others, we realised that the noise had actually been constructive noise - kids participating and being interested in their lesson.

It's a shame that other schools don't seem to do the same

Onebadmother your view is extremely valid. The way we teach in our schools favours girls not boys. Teachers need to learn to be more creative in their approach to teaching. One method doesn't suit all.

There was a recent article in the BBC news website a few weeks back that was raising the issue of how the school system favours girls. so at least there is some awareness of this subject.

It is interesting that when we're in the workplace training and development should take into account people's different learning styles e.g. some people are doers, others are reflectors etc. Meanwhile, a good manager should change their style to suit different team members' circumstances etc. So why on earth doesn't this happen in schools?

If a child isn't responding to one method then change the method. Stop blaming the child.

Hi OBM, I'm back!

rubber Duck's school sounds fantastic, and thats the sort of thing I mean - I think the Scandinavians have the right idea. think they are in Nursery type education for much longer, have big staff to child ratio and do lots of outdoor stuff. Kids can learn loads about maths, science, etc from building stuff, using tools etc. Unfortunately most schools arent equipped to do this kind of stuff.

If you are doing stuff at home with your ds, try to make it into a game. So, if you are doing letter cards or flashcards, ds holds onto those he knows, but gives you those he doesnt - who is the winner? etc. If doing writing or reading try to make it involve something he is really interested in - there are some very simple non fiction books out there, and he can do writing in role play. Some schools are trying to redress the balance by having a more male orientated home corner. for example instead of a house or shop, they might have a garage/workshop and involve the kids in writing pretend MOTs or instruction books.

Some people believe teachers shouldnt get so hung up on making sure that all kids are sitting up and still all the time (and as a teacher I can tell you this is HARD!), but letting them move about a bit! also letting them move as they learn, say jumping onto letters and numbers, finding them hidden round the room etc. these are things you could do at home too. wish I had a good book to recommend, can anyone else advise?

onebadmother, I have 2 boys and completely agree

it seems to me a lot of the primary teachers are women, who may not have kids yet and just haven't a clue how to deal with noisy busy boys

some teachers are great but I find sadly the majority haven't much of a clue (unless they are mothers of boys too)

not knocking teachers, god knows how they do their job!! but I'm talking if my own exoerience

LittleFish - you are spot on about the competition. Just one small example, in YR R DS1's sports day was completely non-competitive, just lots of skipping and running around. V. boring for the parents and the children. The girls seemed to like doing the display of skipping but the boys were completely fed up - you could tell by looking at their faces.

The school was smart enough to drop the slightly PC non-competitive approach for the last 2 years and it has been much more of a success and what is more the girls enjoyed it more too.

I think that although boys on the whole love competition, there is no harm in encouraging the girls to be competitive too since we live in a competitive world. The trick is to do it so that both boys and girls are able to be good losers, to accept defeat and use it as a means of improving and also good winners too.

I agree with you ssd as well. DS1 is on his 4th teacher and only one had children. She knew how to handle the boys and knew how to keep them in line much better than the other 3. I am not saying that they didn't do their job well but they just weren't as aware of the needs of the boys.

Male teachers, male teachers, male teachers!

More of them please in our primary school.

We have to make school a positive enough experience that our boys want to go back as teachers then!

I am not entirely sure how they do it but my dc's (I have ds in Yr 1 and dd in Yr 2) school seems to manage very well. The role play corner is a pirate ship this week, they have a sand / water pit in all KS1 classrooms and seem to do lots of moving about. They are doing 'my body' and they used the smallest in the class to lie down whilst they drew around her, then the template was put on the wall and each child got to name as many parts as they could. Sounds great fun to me and not at all sedentary but they learnt loads and did writing too.

I agree, it is such a shame if boys switch off from school so young

I don't think boys in general have a different attention span, but maybe YOUR boy does. Maybe he has ADD or ADHD - there is a full spectrum of both, and so it may not be particularly severe, or even enough to limit him usually, but it may just be the reason for his teachers comments. It also usually is mixed with some kind of exceptional ability in another area. I'd check it out if I was you, just to be sure. I've got a boy and 2 girls, and none of them come running out of school like Apocalypse noW! Tho my eldest - a boy - does always say shcool was boring!

I don't think boys in general have a different attention span, but maybe YOUR boy does. Maybe he has ADD or ADHD - there is a full spectrum of both, and so it may not be particularly severe, or even enough to limit him usually, but it may just be the reason for his teachers comments. It also usually is mixed with some kind of exceptional ability in another area. I'd check it out if I was you, just to be sure. I've got a boy and 2 girls, and none of them come running out of school like Apocalypse noW! Tho my eldest - a boy - does always say shcool was boring!

Olala, I would have to disagree with you on this. I know its a generalisation, and of course there are boys and girls who don't conform to stereotype, but on the whole boys at 4, 5, 6 and 7 years are less able than girls to sit still and focus, thus the traditional "chalk and talk" type teaching is not always best suited to them. Most but not all boys find it eaiser to learn whilst being physically actively in something.

No surprise really, God knows I find it hard enoughto get my Dh to listen and focus on what I am saying!

That on the whole was supposed to be in bold!

Teh move towards coursework, and moving away from being as much exam focused has benefitted girls as opposed to boys. Boys have been shown to do better at exams, girls at coursework.

The competitive element has also been removed from a lot of schools. BOys tend to be more competitive.

Girls now do much better at school as a whole (measuring exam results) than boys do.

Yes these are generalisations, and not every boy/girl will conform to these, but these are the trends.

And yes teaching styles/ciriculums have changed hugely over 30 yrs.