HELP work fuck up?

[jeppyjop]

I need to be careful how I phrase this as to not be outing sorry.

I work for a big company in the financial sector. Our small department in this company has an issue with something it shouldn’t so we are trying to help improve it. It’s a charity initiative more than anything but in the early stages of research.

As part of the research we needed more data. A graduate was helping me and we decided to submit a freedom of info request to get some help with our research - it was sent to a public body. All within the law.

An email was sent from the head of the small body to the head of our whole company - it was scathing. Said that if we went ahead with the request, which they’d be legally required to do if we do not withdraw, then they would never work with us (they don’t currently) and would be sure to have “learned about the company”.

Essentially the person has misunderstood why we are needing the info. I assume that it reflects bad on them. Any person could request this info but they would have less reason not to provide it.

I am scared. I am small fry. I don’t know what will happen? I wasn’t asked to send the request or to get someone to. We did it out of initiative and it’s been badly received. But realistically we did nothing wrong.

What would you do? I’ve forwarded it to HR for assistance and help. I’m so worried. I can’t sleep and I will have to wait for next steps in the morning.

The worst part is that my research was my ticket to promotion. Not sure anymore!

Try not to worry, it really doesnt sound like a huge deal! The other company has dealt with this extremely unprofessionally, you’re right to escalate immediately although am not sure about why HR would be involved? You would want to talk to your boss/relevant director before responding, and agree comments with them surely?

FOI requests are generally seen as someone trying to unearth something they think is dodgy. Bit late now but you should have just contacted them to explain what you wanted to do and would they be willing to share some information/talk through their lessons learned with you. They have to legally respond to FOI request so you’ve put them in an uncomfortable position which I don’t think was your intention. That said, they shouldn’t be threatening anyone who submits an FOI.

Best next step would be to ring the organisation to see if they’d be willing to share any learning and withdraw the FOI, being clear that you didn’t appreciate the implications.

I am confused.
FOI requests apply only to public bodies, not private companies.

So you're saying that the head of the publicly funded group sent a threatening email to your CEO?!! This is beyond outrageous of them.

@Onjnmoeiejducwoapy thanks for responding. The HR woman is the one for our department and official title is something else, definitely the right person.

Everyone else thinks it’s a big deal as we do have a relationship with the body but not a paying working one. It also doesn’t look great on us.

What was the nature of the information requested, and was an FOI the appropriate means to get it? If you have a working relationship with the body there are usually stats they are happy to share, but if there are stats needed that they are not willing to make public an FOI might be the right way. If it was a journalistic style “how much has been spent on coffee and biscuits” then I can totally understand why they are outraged.

It’s totally unacceptable for them to have written that back to your company however, regardless of topic requested.

@yeOldeTrout that’s exactly what I’m saying. We requested data from a public body (I believe it’s a charity status but not an actual charity, a bit like a school I think) and they obviously don’t want to provide it. They’ve claimed administrative reasons of time and that a private company would benefit. They also said “given the bad press your company has received...” something unrelated to my department or the request. Just like all financial companies at some point your name makes the news which I think ours has.

@Onjnmoeiejducwoapy an example without giving it away would be “you provide information on the breakdown of genders who receive a place on your course, could we know the breakdown of gender who applied for the course”
FOI was the only way they would tell us, that is known, but in hindsight not the best way. They didn’t need to email the CEO rather than just the head of our department.

The working relationship is only that we hire from them regularly. Hence why we wanted to know the info, to help with our hiring

I think the head of the company who sent the scathing email is completely bonkers tbh, they might not have appreciated getting an FOI retweet but public bodies receive them and have an obligation to reply (unless it’s out of remit, I can’t remember the terminology but there’s certain info that isn’t disclosable)

Speak to HR but I don’t think it’s anything you should be that worried about, sounds like an overreaction on their behalf or a local of understanding of the FOI process

If you’d just asked for the info would they have given you it? Maybe they felt it was a bit heavy handed/threatening but still unprofessional to react in that way

FWIW their reaction sounds extremely dodgy to me. Yes you might have asked it a bit naively but I don’t think you can be blamed for the fact that they are perhaps trying to hide something. I would talk to your boss and explain your positive intentions. I wouldn’t worry too much tonight, there’s every chance your company will want to keep it quiet rather than make a big deal of it either. Good luck

Ah ok sounds like their anger then is in terms of commercial sensitivity and seeing you as trying to poach from them. In which case no problem, it’s their issue

It's very unprofessional of the body to respond in this way, they are all but blackmailing your company in order to avoid revealing information that they are legally obliged to release. If there were unreasonable costs involved in replying to your request they could have just left it at that, no need to start with the threats.

I can see why you feel horrified and embarrassed though. Was your request obviously sensitive, should you have known that it would cause this reaction? If no then it shouldn't reflect badly on you.

@LawnFever I agree about how unprofessional they are being. Basically threatening OP’s company.

@HotPenguin it’s a sensitive topic, but they already release data (to prove they are improving) on the subject, we just wanted to know a bit more.
My assumption is that it’ll look bad on them. It could be just that it takes time, but they really did threaten. They also obviously knew that the person who sent it was a newbie (obvious as in email signature).

The thing is, the project is departmental - and only a small group and only to do when there isn’t billable work. It’s still important. So the CEO will be clueless as to the reasons. I’m hoping he doesn’t care about this tiny body.
It would never go to the press though, not that they’d care, so I don’t see any negative effect on the company.

I just am scared for my job.

Foi is a huge drain on public sector at the best of times, but especially so now.

Journalists, students etc use FOI as a shortcut to genuine research. Where previously you would ask for an interview, data etc and the public sector would be able to prioritize, FOI places a legal obligation to answer any bloody random question, creating lots of work for little or no gain to the public.

You've not acted illegally but perhaps shown a lack of awareness. Unless it's something hugely in the public interest I would park your request for now.

@BexR whilst it’s a public body, it is hugely profiteering. They will 100% already have the data, they have to have compiled it in order to make the data they publish available (essentially asking for the working out). It is something that is in the public interest outside of our research and it’s impossible to obtain any other way.

I wouldn’t be able to have an interview. I was trying to find empirical data.

If the person had responded with the same threats to the sender, he would have withdrawn / told someone. Instead the person went over his head and googled the man to email.

Well try not to worry. If I was the CEO I'd be more annoyed about their threatening tone than the innocuous reason that led to them.

Thanks everyone, I’ll update.

FWIW, FOI requests are made of this body A LOT. A simple google brought up hundreds from recent. One is similar to our request but a bit more specific so not useful to us. As a result, it’s easy to see why this would be asked and does back up our reasoning.

I’m hoping the CEO doesn’t care but given the bad press lately I’m sure he’s irritated by the inconvenience.

Something like a breakdown of applicants by sex is exactly the kind of info that can be sweet-talked out of an academic institution. So if the request is really like your example, a conference call (since meetings are not possible) would have been a better approach. You explain the work you are trying to do and then explain how this information could help. Then there is a bit of back and forth in what they can easily produce/ are willing to produce and how that might meet your needs. An FOI is a last resort move. I sweet-talk data out of government entities all the time. The key is to show them how they benefit.

In this example you gave, it might be something like , we are trying to do outreach to get more women interested in x careers. It would help to know if women even apply or if they do, are there patterns of deficiencies in their applications. If the problem is something like women not taking the right combo of math classes, then we will focus our outreach on getting women to take those classes. See, if benefits you because your goal is more women in the career and it benefits them because your outreach gets them better applicants.

I’ve never gotten in trouble for showing initiative, even if it wasn’t perfectly executed. I wouldn’t worry about too much fallout from this. Use it as a learning opportunity. It’s the kind of thing that can be spun really nicely at review time.

FOI is an incredibly important tool for research. It’s often the only way to get complete data, rather than the edited versions that public bodies decide to release. It’s certainly not used as a ‘shortcut’ to get information at my newspaper. It’s most commonly used at my paper to get information that has been published under previous more transparent governments but, strangely enough, is no longer published by this government or public bodies.

I am absolutely staggered that the head of an organisation would think it appropriate to try to bully the requesting org into submission and I’d go to the ICO to be honest, because this is absolutely not your fuck up, but their fuck up. Bad PR is not a reason to refuse an FOI request, and if they already compile the data then they won’t get away with claiming it would take over the time threshold.

"Journalists, students etc use FOI as a shortcut to genuine research. Where previously you would ask for an interview, data etc and the public sector would be able to prioritize, "

I'm a journalist. If I want some info my first port of call is to pick up the phone and ask. But civil servants are generally instructed not to talk to the media, and 9 times out of 10, I'm told to ask for it as a FOI. It might seem like a drain on resources but it's public information and they're obliged to provide it.

And as a journo, this scenario of yours would have my spidey senses tingling BTW OP!

Have a look at the what do they know website. That might help with your wording.

Their response was shocking and your CEO won't think badly or you so don't worry.

Personally I don't think you have done anything wrong. Sounds like the organisation you contacted has responded incredibly unprofessionally. FoI is there for a reason. Sometimes you won't get data / information any other way. I suspect if you hadn't put in an FoI you would've got a lot of blarney anyway if it's a sensitive subject

To try and understand the dynamics behind this - has your company been hiring poaching their employees. Does the FOI relate to your company's actions in hiring their employees.

The head will come across as a bit of a dick in sending an email to your head but if the answer to both questions above is 'yes' you can see why an FOI is rubbing salt in a wound because they are legally obliged to gather the info for you at their own cost. Have you ever had to compile information from across a company - it is no picnic and completely thankless.

I guess chalk this to experience. At the end of the day you may have had to submit an FOI anyway if the company was unco-operative but it is worth allowing the company to have a chance to get its information to you in a way which did not involve a gun to their head. Then if their head complained to your head, you could say you have already asked nicely.

How important is it that you get this info?

A long time ago, I was taught that when you ask a question, and get the reply "How dare you ask! I've never been so insulted!" it's not because there is something wrong with the question.

@blueshoes no, it is impossible for us to poach from this body. It is clear that isn’t the intention either.

Similar requests have been made before and answers on what do they know but it didn’t quite answer our question.

It is important to our personal objectives but not a business one. It is a matter of time before someone else would request the same data as it’s a hot topic.

They are simply not wanting to provide it.

An example would be (please note all examples are fake so far so don’t read into them literally!): we hire a lot of men in this area but want to know why we don’t employ more women. The body is the training provider for the profession - we want to know if it’s because women arent applying or if they have applied and just not been successful in getting on the course. Our aim would then be to train women on how to get on the course as a charitable project.