To be surprised that the Royal Mail Christmas stamps are all religious?

[stampsurprise]

I thought for a change I'd get proper Christmas stamps this year. Didn't expect them to be all religious and no choice!

Is this usually what's on offer? I don't object personally, but I think most of those I send to won't care for a religious stamp.

Caucasian is not a category on the census form. We’re not a country that believes in race.

I could possibly kill a Saxon with one of those cardboard tubes you post posters in.

But it turns out they alternate them every year. I wonder why they don't have the courage of their convictions?

It's a business. Barring some exceptions (The Entertainer comes to mind with not opening Sundays even when it was Christmas Eve), most of them aren't about or known for their convictions, but about the services and goods they provide.

Alternating makes it easier they can only print so many kinds and people who have convictions can just buy enough to last two years, or buy from other places that keep stock of the other stamps. Stamps don't have to be bought from the Royal Mail directly.

I don't even celebrate the thing, but the idea it's 'stolen' makes no sociological or cultural sense. Christians didn't 'steal' Christmas/the date. The date was up and still is up for debate - not everyone celebrates it on the 25th of December. The celebration of Yule and other winter traditions spread would appear to dance around the calendar from our more fixed time perspective. The traditions were integrated into the cultures that were converted and those traditions changed as the cultures did. That's how traditions work and why Christmas and other Christian traditions are different around the world and it's different now to how it was celebrated centuries past. It will keep changing in the future, but the Christian celebration still has importance and has more merit to it than trying to pretend that it's really been pagan all along rather than converted once-pagans made Christianity more theirs by including rituals that made sense to them.

I could possibly kill a Saxon with one of those cardboard tubes you post posters in. What have you got against Saxons?

But they stole it. It was never theirs.

@speakout Whom? Out of curiosity.

@Allergictoironing

I understand the need for people, religious or not, to have something to celebrate but surely just make a festival up for yourselves?

But Pagans HAD a festival, called Yule. Just because a Johnny-come-lately religion like Christianity decided to hi-jack the date, why should they change

But, while I recognise that Christmas is celebrated in Christmas to tie in with Solstice (I've no strong opinions on WHEN it should be celebrated), it is not the same festival as Yule. It is akin to saying "I'm going to celebrate the winter solstice or Yule and I'm going to continue calling it the Winter Solstice or Yule but I'm going to celebrate it by going to church and singing songs about Jesus. And then, when the pagans are outnumbered, I'm going to tell them they're stupid for thinking Yule is a pagan festival because barely anyone's pagan anymore. Yule is a Christian festival."

I'm not suggesting that secular people (I'm one of them) not celebrate at Christmas time. I just think it's inaccurate to say they're celebrating Christmas. Or that they're celebrating the winter solstice. Because they aren't, they're contributing to the bastardisation of someone else's religious festival.

It would be much easier if we didn't persist in having it as a state religion.

@ImNotMeImSomeoneElse

Christmas was a Pagan festival originally, one that the 'peasants' didn't want to give up after the Roman invasion so were allowed to keep as long as they made it about Christianity.

So I guess the clue to what happens when you're invaded and have a new religion forced on you but let's face it, the majority of people in this country are secular now, most consider Christmas family time, not a Christian holiday, so I see the OP's point.

@Ginfordinner

Currently just 14 percent of Britons identified themselves as Church of England, and 8 percent as Catholic. This represents nearly a quarter of the population, so it is a minority, but maybe not as small a minority as FudgeDrudge's angry posts keep pointing out.

What about other types of Christian, or are CofE and Catholic the only options on a census? I have friends who are Baptists, Methodists, Greek Orthodox among others. I know people who are Christians, but rarely attend church (myself included). I also know people who would tick 'Christian' on a form and tell you they think Jesus is a made up pile of shit.

Anyway. I like the stamps. They are lovely images. I can't remember the last time I bought any though. I probably should this year as we won't be seeing anyone so I'll need to post cards.

No. Anybody who shows no respect for the festivals of other religions is an idiot. I don't believe in any deity yet I respect people who do just as I expect them to respect my beliefs.

Well said @rsababe.

What happened to religious tolerance @FudgeDrudge? And you still haven't answered why Christianity makes you so angry.

Christmas was a Pagan festival originally, one that the 'peasants' didn't want to give up after the Roman invasion so were allowed to keep as long as they made it about Christianity.

@ktp100 Really, which one?

Stripesnomore

I am old. THis was a tick box on the census for in the 1960s.

@ancientgran

I genuinely can't understand how Christians can feel comfortable celebrating a holiday they stole from the pagans in the first place When was the pagan winter festival the 25th December?

Yule falls on the winter Solstice which is generally 21/22 December.

However the sun appears to stop moving around the solstice. The first day there is a visible movement towards lengthening days without using sophisticated equipment is around 25h December in the modern calendar.

It stands to reason then that this is the day they would have originally celebrated as it was clear by them that the sun was starting to return.

Christians though really should be observing Christmas on 7th January - Old Christmas Day.

When was the pagan winter festival the 25th December?

The date of 25 December was taken from the birthday of the Syrian god Sol Invictus. I had a very devout Christian great-great-aunt (born in 1905, IIRC) who refused to celebrate Christmas because it was blasphemous, given that Jesus' date of birth is never mentioned in the Bible at all. I think that's unusual, though.

‘Christmas was a Pagan festival originally, one that the 'peasants' didn't want to give up after the Roman invasion so were allowed to keep as long as they made it about Christianity.’

The Romans invaded Britain hundreds of years before the date of 25th of December, and that was based on the religious dates of classical religion, nothing to do with the religion of the countries they invaded.

There are simply not enough facepalms in the world....

@speakout

But so many " identifying" as christians are not really- many are sit on the fence wishy washy haven't given it much thought christians.

I remember as a child thinking about this idea. During a national census my parents ticked boxes - "caucasian", "Bristish born" etc, and ticked the "christian" box.
We never had a bible in the home - my parents never attended church, they didn't pray or teach me bible stories- yet somehow considerd themselves christian by default somehow.
I suspect many of that happily diminishing 14% of people who identify as christian are in that sit on the fence/can't be arsed to think brigade.

Yup. If I remember correctly (and I might be off here), in the 2011 census, 52% of people claimed to be Christian. 6% claimed to go to church regularly. Now, I know there are some people who genuinely do believe in the Christian ideas of God and Jesus who won't go to church because they're unable to get to one or they work funny hours or believe churches are idolatry. But face it, most of the 46% have looked at that and thought "Well, I like presents at Christmas and chocolate at Easter and I'm not in one of those forrin religions..."

Now, I'm not religious. But if I did believe in this all loving, all knowing, all powerful being who was offering me an eternity in heaven... I would probably bother to turn up to church with some regularity.

@ImNotMeImSomeoneElse

I'm very aware of its pagan roots.

But they are Christmas stamps. Not Yuletide or Saturnalia stamps...

This ^

@stampsurprise

[[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4420896.stm]]m_

"A Christmas stamp which many Hindus said was "disrespectful" to their religion has been partially withdrawn.

The Royal Mail has agreed not to replace the 68p stamp, which depicts a Hindu couple worshipping the baby Jesus, when current stocks run out."

^ Maybe the RM should stick to Madonna and child. When they try to go inclusive (in 2005) they get it badly wrong!!!

Actually, you will find statues of Jesus in some Hindu temples, as he is seen by some as a incarnation of Vishnu.

Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, but not the son of God.

Other PPs - if you are not accepting or tolerating Christmas as being a Christian festival, then I’m afraid you are reinterpreting a religious festival at least. You cannot say Christmas is NOT Christian. Your version of it, maybe. But not technically true.

Also, if you are not a monarchist, do you not use the usual stamps then?!

@FudgeDrudge

Christmas = Christ Mass, as far I understand it you celebrate the birth of Jesus. It's a religious feast

It isn't. 95% of people who celbrate christmas couldn't give a flying fuck about Jesus. It's a secular holiday.

That is so offensive. It’a a Christian celebration and holy day. There’s no problem with non Christians celebrating it but it is absolutely not a secular holiday. Do you actually believe that?!

@donquixotedelamancha

Saturnalia

I look forwarding to these threads rolling around every Christmas and Easter.

@Stripesnomore

I look forwarding to these threads rolling around every Christmas and Easter.

It wouldn't be Mumsnet without them!

@Stripesnomore

I look forwarding to these threads rolling around every Christmas and Easter.

You really know it's Christmas!

@speakout

But it is pagan in origin- as many of the elements surrounding the festival. Christians may have hijacked it, but most of us celebrate a secular festival.

The name means nothing- Easter is an example of that- another hijacked festival.

But pagan isn't secular, is it?