Page 3 | To think this Maths target is completely pointless

NoCryingInEngineering · 2020-11-20T18:24:39+00:00

DS is in Yr 2 (and finding it boring and repetative). A couple of weeks before half term he and a chunk of his class came out of school clutching Target Met certificates for knowing their 2 times table. Today there was a new maths target stuck in his school diary.... to know the doubles of numbers to 12!! I am totally WTF??? and *this* close to writing a That Parent note back to the teacher. Am I missing something or is this the most pointless target ever?

Flutter12 · 20/11/2020 21:17

I'm still not getting how doubling and x2 are different mind

That’s because you’re not a maths teacher. Let the professionals do the job they’re trained to do.
If you want to do extra learning at home that’s fine but just know that the teacher has a system and they will be more than aware of what your child is capable of and the reasons behind setting certain work.

dootball · 20/11/2020 21:21

OP just to say I agree with you - but you don't have to be that parent to bring it up! surely just a quick note in what whatever book is used for parental communication would likely fix the issue without any drama.

whatkatydid2013 · 20/11/2020 21:23

I think how well kids grasp maths varies widely. My 6 year old is still struggling a bit with times tables and we’ve been working on it with her, showing her how to solve problems by either doubling the number or doing 2+2+2 etc till she reaches the answer, used Lego blocks in different towers to show how that looks etc. She finds it really hard. Meanwhile the 4 year old gets it no bother. We asked the 6 year old what 2x3 was the other day while practicing and the small one instantly piped up with 6 and was able to explain that it was two lots of three and then when we asked her another way to make it she showed us three lots of two. Some people find it fairly intuitive but most don’t.

BoomBoomsCousin · 20/11/2020 21:24

How do you know he won't be applying it though?

At some point he will be applying it, but the issue the OP has isn't with how number fluency is useful in day to day life, it's that his target isn't to be flexible it is simply to "know the doubles of numbers to 12". So he will meet his target not by swapping easily between 2 4 = 4 2 = 4 + 4 = 4 doubled = 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 8 (as PP noted). It will be met by learning 2 doubled is 4, 3 doubled is 6, etc. And he already knows this because he is aware that doubling is the same as * 2.

BoomBoomsCousin · 20/11/2020 21:33

@Flutter12

I'm still not getting how doubling and x2 are different mind

That’s because you’re not a maths teacher. Let the professionals do the job they’re trained to do.
If you want to do extra learning at home that’s fine but just know that the teacher has a system and they will be more than aware of what your child is capable of and the reasons behind setting certain work.

That really wasn't my experience of maths teaching in primary school. Even the maths specialist teachers didn't really understand maths or why they were teaching certain techniques, they were simply regurgitating what had been laid down for them and had a pretty limited understanding. The non-maths specialists sometimes struggled with the curriculum and some of the TAs were down right dangerous.

Which isn't to say I disagree with the way it's taught as a reasonable starting point, but I very much disagree that they all actually know what they are doing and are able to adapt to children's needs and abilities well, at least at the higher ability end.

Original poster

NoCryingInEngineering · 20/11/2020 21:36

That's because you're not a maths teacher

No, I'm an engineer. One of those total weirdos that actually uses maths every day. But still not getting how doubles to double 12 is different to 2x table

OP posts:

Hercwasonaroll · 20/11/2020 21:40

The word double is the difference between them.

You are so fluent and so expert at maths that you can't see the difference.

ThornAmongstRoses · 20/11/2020 21:42

I’m with you OP.

My son is in Year 2 and is absolutely bored stiff with the maths.

I have spoken to the teacher on two occasions it but nothing gets done.

We just tell him to just do what he’s asked of in class to placate the teacher and we just do our own maths work with him at home at the level he’s capable of.

Hercwasonaroll · 20/11/2020 21:42

They should also be constructed differently in his head. Double four should be 4+4, whereas 4x2 is probably 2+2+2+2 now. Over time the links will form that 4x2 can be done as 4+4 or 2+2+2+2.

chomalungma · 20/11/2020 21:43

No, I'm an engineer. One of those total weirdos that actually uses maths every day. But still not getting how doubles to double 12 is different to 2x table

Have you ever sat in front of 30 children who know that 12 x 2 is 24 but look blank when you ask what double 12 is?

Hercwasonaroll · 20/11/2020 21:44

I'm a secondary teacher who regularly gets students who don't know that double means the same as x2. Those early links and bonds haven't been formed and are so difficult to retain later on. The investment now will be worth it.

Amanduh · 20/11/2020 21:45

It’a literally the curriculum.
Doubling and x2 are not the same, methodology wise. That is the point.

WhoLettheCatOut · 20/11/2020 21:45

I know what you mean but in Yr 2 they learn about all the different ways of reaching the same number so that they can think about multiplication in an agile way. It sounds obvious to us now but not to a 6 year old. Maybe whizz through it and get some online maths fun games?

LaLaLandIsNoFun · 20/11/2020 21:51

I’m just going to call it - this is just a stealth boast

chomalungma · 20/11/2020 21:53

Someone may know what 9 x 2 is - but do they know what 9 + 9 is (and do they use the fact they know 9 x 2 to work this out)

Do they understand that 9 x 2, 9 + 9, double 9 and 2 x 9 gives exactly the same result?

listsandbudgets · 20/11/2020 21:57

If he's bored teach him something harder. At that age, DS liked to double and keep doubling.. 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 etc. He seemed to find it very satisfying how quickly he hit the thousands! Actually he still enjoys doing it but he's in year 4 now ..

Flipflops85 · 20/11/2020 21:59

It’s different in terms of vocabulary, question format and application within problem solving. Your child has no difficulty making the links, but others do.

Suggesting that doubles don’t need learning as an isolated set of facts is unreasonable. Some children do not make automatic links or apply their knowledge across a range of strategies.

Being upset that your child is not being challenged and is becoming disengaged is not unreasonable. If homework and class work are regularly too easy/boring, you need to communicate this with the teacher. There’s no reason Year 2 pupils shouldn’t be challenged, regardless of their ability. How do you know they’re not being challenged in class?

BoomBoomsCousin · 20/11/2020 22:04

@NoCryingInEngineering

I think BoomBoomsCousin has it spot on.

I'm perfectly happy to set him maths problems at home (he actively enjoys being given an Excel generated sheet of random numbers to 100 to add). But I'm not shore buying him a Yr3 maths book will help in the longer term. He might find it fun to work on at home but it's not going to stop school maths being boring this year & will probably make next year worse.

I'm still not getting how doubling and x2 are different mind

The difference between doubling and times two is about understanding the relationship between multiplication and addition. Especially when there is a focus on learning number facts by rote it can be easy for people to fail to realise that 2 * a = a + a

Of course, that isn't what he's currently learning with the targets he's been given, maybe the class are going to be moving on to seeing how these two things relate to each other after they've learnt both sets of number facts. But if your DS has already picked that up and they haven't got anything else for him to do then I'm not surprised he's really bored.

I agree that simply teaching him the curriculum ahead of everyone else in class could be counterproductive to having him engage in maths (especially at school) but there are probably a lot of things you can do with him that won't be on the curriculum until he's at secondary school (where they will hopefully be more responsive to different abilities). Primary school really concentrates on arithmetic but there's a lot more to maths than that.

One area I don't think you can do too much of that gets really overlooked in school is pattern recognition. Looking for patterns in things (like the times tables, but also in things like brick and tile work - how many different patterns can he make out from one set of tiles?, how can he change those patterns. How can he make a pattern that can repeat endlessly? You can get tessellating shapes for him to build with if he finds the drawing too hard. Also, introducing him to the idea of other bases (e.g. binary) could be something he finds exciting that won't be touched on for a while yet. It's a few years since I was trying to do this for mine at that age so I'm not sure what's appropriate but you could check out Natural Math which has a whole bunch of free resources to help explore math in a very non-school way that introduces some of the more complex ideas like calculus in ways that are approachable for young kids.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 20/11/2020 22:07

@Hercwasonaroll

They should also be constructed differently in his head. Double four should be 4+4, whereas 4x2 is probably 2+2+2+2 now. Over time the links will form that 4x2 can be done as 4+4 or 2+2+2+2.

It’s possible that he might already have developed this understanding by year 2.

Actually it’s probably more than possible since those concepts tend to make up part of the year 1 curriculum and are repeated as part of the work on multiplication in year 2.

Original poster

NoCryingInEngineering · 20/11/2020 22:07

Hercwasonaroll that actually made sense as to why its given as a separate target, thank you.

DS has definitely figured out the examples you give of 4x2. Purely from having figured out the different Lego brick combinations he could use to block out a given space. I can totally understand that not everyone will see or think about numbers like that though.

OP posts:

chomalungma · 20/11/2020 22:13

If you want a bit of a challenge, ask him to create a real life word problem where the answer is 24.

He can be as creative as he likes. But the answer has to be 24.

Hercwasonaroll · 20/11/2020 22:14

It’s possible that he might already have developed this understanding by year 2.

If that's the case then great. However I regularly see secondary students who don't have this understanding.

Mischance · 20/11/2020 22:15

I agree that it has point and is a new step. It is looking at the same thing in a different way, and this is helpful when maths principles need to be applied to real problems.

Original poster

NoCryingInEngineering · 20/11/2020 22:21

I will try him with that chomalunga. And if it gets him to voluntarily write something we will all be winners (if DH and I don't pass out with the shock)

OP posts:

ArtieFufkinPolymerRecords · 20/11/2020 22:53

@LaLaLandIsNoFun

I’m just going to call it - this is just a stealth boast

It always amazes me how many children on here are bored, because the work is too easy and the teacher never gives them anything to challenge them.

The suggestion of getting a workbook for the year above, why? Lots of children would be capable of learning the curriculum quicker, but what's the point? I just don't get why you would teach them things just so you can tell the teacher that they can already do it when they cover it in class.

IF your child wants to do extra maths at home, and not all, even able mathematicians, want to, use sites like NRich to develop their problem solving skills, rather than getting ahead on the curriculum or just giving them sums to do.