AIBU or are the lives of school staff worthless?

[Witchcraftandhokum]

I fully appreciate that the education and mental well-being of children is important but why does it trump the physical and mental health of school staff? The facts are simple, people are being told to stay at home because it is unsafe to do otherwise, unless you work in education or the NHS who are provided with effective PPE.

On a daily basis I am expected to supervise the diner where 150 students eat lunch (obviously mask free) if I wish to eat I am also mask free. I have to supervise the same 150 children in narrow corridors. For this pupils are supposed to wear masks but there are a number who refuse (not the students who are exempt) and we cannot enforce it. We hand out hundreds of masks per week to students whose parents don't ensure they have one with them.

We are not allowed to wear masks in classrooms but are given visors which aren't as effective. The children are not allowed to wear masks in classrooms. None of this are rules imposed by the school but are in-line with the government guidance.

We have students who say they have developed a cough knowing we have to send them home, we cannot make the decision as to whether they are lying or not, but I've been verbally abused by parents calling me "fucking stupid" for not knowing when a child is lying.

Before half-term we had 25% of staff off sick as they had tested positive (including myself). There are many experts stating schools should be shut but Boris has done a fantastic job of insinuating that school staff are lazy and don't want to work, and the early response to the unions concerns shows that this is working. I've never suffered with stress or anxiety but the thought of a return to school tomorrow is making me feel sick.

Talking to colleagues who work in other schools it appears my experience is not unusual. So AIBU to think that this government doesn't give a shiny shit about school staff.

Do people shed the virus if they are wearing a mask, though? I generally feel safe in shops at the moment, as a customer, if everyone is wearing a mask. People keep their distance. I don't even sanitise my shopping trolley before I use it, I just wash my hands as I leave home and when I arrive home and am happy with doing that. I bloody HATE it when non-mask wearers wander round the shop, especially when it's a whole family which suggests no particular health issues as to why they shouldn't wear a mask.

@Stripesnomore

‘The transmission is much more likely to happen if close contact occur for a period of over 10 minutes.’

But that is per person. If a teacher comes into contact with 30-150 pupils a day for 1-6hours and I come into contact with 2,000 people in retail a day, the teacher risks more in duration of contact while I risk more in number of contacts.

The vast majority of your customers are masked. And the area you all share is huge compared to a small low ceilinged classroom.

If your boss asked you to sit (unmasked) in a confined small area with 30 of your unmasked customers for five or six hours (and every hour those 30 leave and another 30 are brought in) would you accept that? Or would you point out that his instruction is not covid safe? Oh, and the room has no aircon and the windows probably don't open.

I will find the lancet link, but then I must get off this thread as my evening is becoming a busman’s holiday.

I actually quite enjoy my job and like helping customers, 99% of whom are lovely, as with every other social situation, and I shouldn’t spend my night moaning about the rest.

Sara, I would feel safer in a classroom yes.

If teachers want to wear masks, and can teach effectively whilst doing so (imagine most can, in most school settings) then they can.

However, teachers are not being uniquely persecuted here and the whole martyr/hyperbole “our lives just don’t matter” is ridiculous. It does not help your cause. There are sensible measures that should be taken, sure, but really some of the hysteria from teachers about this is a bit much.

For a start- much of PPE is actually about protecting others. Masks main purpose is provide Protection to others, not the wearer. We wear masks around patients to protect them, they won’t really do much for the HCP unless they are the FFP3 fitted version (that we only get to use if we are with a patient known to have, or strongly suspected of having, Covid. The fluid resistant masks don’t have much of a role in protecting the wearer, unfortunately. Do this idea that if only teachers were given PPE it would save them is a bit of a misunderstanding.

www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30287-X/fulltext

www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3223

For Curly

@Stripesnomore

Sara, I would feel safer in a classroom yes.

That's not the question I asked

@Stripesnomore

Sara, I would feel safer in a classroom yes.

That's not the question I asked

@Stripesnomore

Sara, I would feel safer in a classroom yes.

That's not what I asked.

@Stripesnomore

Sara, I would feel safer in a classroom yes.

That's not what I asked.

8 hours in a room in which various people have been shedding the virus is riskier than 30 mins in a room.

Just wanted to point out that in schools, remember that even if school classes remain in the same classroom for the day, the teachers have to go from classroom to classroom. Multiple levels of exposure for the teacher. And it isn't possible for teachers to always remain behind a safe 2m line in the classroom, as some people seem to think. The safety of pupils is their main concern and if there is an issue with a student/s the impact of trying to discipline that student diminishes if the student thinks they are not going to step over that line.

Regarding this thread generally, I do think it's important to try and understand each other's workplaces and work processes without judging and point scoring. It's not really a "who has it harder" competition. I just think there is a lack of understanding of how things are in schools. For example, I mentioned to some relatives working in the NHS about how the cleaning could be more regular in schools. They suggested that teachers should be doing their own cleaning of their own areas, as happens in their own NHS dept. They just didn't seem to understand that teachers don't have their "own areas" anymore, they are ALWAYS with children in different classrooms, supervising & teaching them, and can't leave 30 kids unsupervised for 15 mins while they go into the corridors and wipe the doors and stair rails from top to bottom. Incidentally, the same relatives have said that their regular appointment systems have been extended ie. appointments are more spread out to allow for cleaning between each patient. This is just impossible to implement in schools while children are in school full time. It may be possible if there was an attendance rota, but parents would be up in arms at that, clearly.

It's natural that we don't understand what someone's workplace is like unless we have worked in it. We should all be kinder and try to get a real understanding of what we are all working with in our workplaces.

It is two studies, Curly:

www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3223

[]www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30287-X/fulltext]]

8 hours in a room in which various people have been shedding the virus is riskier than 30 mins in a room.

Just wanted to point out that in schools, remember that even if school classes remain in the same classroom for the day, the teachers have to go from classroom to classroom. Multiple levels of exposure for the teacher. And it isn't possible for teachers to always remain behind a safe 2m line in the classroom, as some people seem to think. The safety of pupils is their main concern and if there is an issue with a student/s the impact of trying to discipline that student diminishes if the student thinks they are not going to step over that line.

Regarding this thread generally, I do think it's important to try and understand each other's workplaces and work processes without judging and point scoring. It's not really a "who has it harder" competition. I just think there is a lack of understanding of how things are in schools. For example, I mentioned to some relatives working in the NHS about how the cleaning could be more regular in schools. They suggested that teachers should be doing their own cleaning of their own areas. They just didn't seem to understand that they don't have their "own areas" anymore, they are ALWAYS with children, supervising & teaching them, and can't throw everyone into the corridor for 15 mins while they go into the corridors and wipe the doors and stair rails from top to bottom. Other health care relatives have said that their regular appointment systems have been extended ie. appointments are more spread out to allow for cleaning between each patient. This is just impossible while children are in school full time. It may be possible if there was an attendance rota, but parents would be up in arms at that, clearly.

8 hours in a room in which various people have been shedding the virus is riskier than 30 mins in a room.

Just wanted to point out that in schools, remember that even if school classes remain in the same classroom for the day, the teachers have to go from classroom to classroom. Multiple levels of exposure for the teacher. And it isn't possible for teachers to always remain behind a safe 2m line in the classroom, as some people seem to think. The safety of pupils is their main concern and if there is an issue with a student/s the impact of trying to discipline that student diminishes if the student thinks they are not going to step over that line.

Regarding this thread generally, I do think it's important to try and understand each other's workplaces and work processes without judging and point scoring. It's not really a "who has it harder" competition. I just think there is a lack of understanding of how things are in schools. For example, I mentioned to some relatives working in the NHS about how the cleaning could be more regular in schools. They suggested that teachers should be doing their own cleaning of their own areas. They just didn't seem to understand that they don't have their "own areas" anymore, they are ALWAYS with children, supervising & teaching them, and can't throw everyone into the corridor for 15 mins while they go into the corridors and wipe the doors and stair rails from top to bottom. Other health care relatives have said that their regular appointment systems have been extended ie. appointments are spread out to allow for cleaning between each patient. This is just impossible while children are in school full time. It may be possible if there was an attendance rota, but parents would be up in arms at that, clearly.

Can I just ask people, if the main point of masks is to protect others, are all parents on this thread happy for their child to wear a mask every minute of their day in school?

How would you react to the school calling you to collect your child because they were refusing to wear a mask?

@jacks11 you are correct that surgical masks main purpose is to protect others, but there is gaining evidence that they also protect the wearer.
Same for cloth masks.
They do not prevent all coronavirus carrying particles from being breathed in, but they reduce the dose.
This linked article has lots of links in it to the various bits of research on this

theconversation.com/cloth-masks-do-protect-the-wearer-breathing-in-less-coronavirus-means-you-get-less-sick-143726

@stairway

I doubt there will be many resignations unless taking early retirement. Most people work because they need the money and with covid and mass unemployment looming I doubt many would take the risk.

I know that 6 teachers at the local secondary have resigned for December 2020.

Some at 60 -some are with various health issues. But it is unprecented around here for more than 4 teachers per year at that school to resign -that's in July.

I know of 4 that have resigned with no job to go on to in my school

If you look through the thread you will see I have answered your questions, as have others about a variety of work places.

I don’t work in a section with windows. There are higher risks for people working in areas where the air is pumped in by a ventilation system (see link). Many customers can’t wear a mask. The place is bigger but there are more people filling it, virus shed remains in the building etc.

It gets a bit ridiculous to keep rehashing the same points. The risks are different not less.

At the moment in the U.K. retail workers are at higher risk than HCPs but lower risk than security guards. It may be in two months that it turns out that teachers have the highest mortality rate of any profession, but at the moment there isn’t evidence that they are at greater risk.

At the moment I am an old asthmatic in one of the highest corona areas in one of the jobs with a high mortality rate.

If I get it I get it and if I die I die. But people still need to shop for essentials.

8 hours in a room in which various people have been shedding the virus is riskier than 30 mins in a room.

Just wanted to point out that in schools, remember that even if school classes remain in the same classroom for the day, the teachers have to go from classroom to classroom. Multiple levels of exposure for the teacher. And it isn't possible for teachers to always remain behind a safe 2m line in the classroom, as some people seem to think. The safety of pupils is their main concern and if there is an issue with a student/s the impact of trying to discipline that student diminishes if the student thinks they are not going to step over that line.

Regarding this thread generally, I do think it's important to try and understand each other's workplaces and work processes without judging and point scoring. It's not really a "who has it harder" competition. I just think there is a lack of understanding of how things are in schools. For example, I mentioned to some relatives working in the NHS about how the cleaning could be more regular in schools. They suggested that teachers should be doing their own cleaning of their own areas, as happens in their own NHS dept. They just didn't seem to understand that teachers don't have their "own areas" anymore, they are ALWAYS with children in different classrooms, supervising & teaching them, and can't leave 30 kids unsupervised for 15 mins while they go into the corridors and wipe the doors and stair rails from top to bottom. Incidentally, the same relatives have said that their regular appointment systems have been extended ie. appointments are more spread out to allow for cleaning between each patient. This is just impossible to implement in schools while children are in school full time. It may be possible if there was an attendance rota, but parents would be up in arms at that, clearly.

It's natural that we don't understand what someone's workplace is like unless we have worked in it. We should all be kinder and try to get a real understanding of what we are all working with in our workplaces.

8 hours in a room in which various people have been shedding the virus is riskier than 30 mins in a room.

Just wanted to point out that in schools, remember that even if school classes remain in the same classroom for the day, the teachers have to go from classroom to classroom. Multiple levels of exposure for the teacher. And it isn't possible for teachers to always remain behind a safe 2m line in the classroom, as some people seem to think. The safety of pupils is their main concern and if there is an issue with a student/s the impact of trying to discipline that student diminishes if the student thinks they are not going to step over that line.

Regarding this thread generally, I do think it's important to try and understand each other's workplaces and work processes without judging and point scoring. It's not really a "who has it harder" competition. I just think there is a lack of understanding of how things are in schools. For example, I mentioned to some relatives working in the NHS about how the cleaning could be more regular in schools. They suggested that teachers should be doing their own cleaning of their own areas, as happens in their own NHS dept. They just didn't seem to understand that teachers don't have their "own areas" anymore, they are ALWAYS with children in different classrooms, supervising & teaching them, and can't leave 30 kids unsupervised for 15 mins while they go into the corridors and wipe the doors and stair rails from top to bottom. Incidentally, the same relatives have said that their regular appointment systems have been extended ie. appointments are more spread out to allow for cleaning between each patient. This is just impossible to implement in schools while children are in school full time. It may be possible if there was an attendance rota, but parents would be up in arms at that, clearly.

It's natural that we don't understand what someone's workplace is like unless we have worked in it. We should all be kinder and try to get a real understanding of what we are all working with in our workplaces.

8 hours in a room in which various people have been shedding the virus is riskier than 30 mins in a room.

Just wanted to point out that in schools, remember that even if school classes remain in the same classroom for the day, the teachers have to go from classroom to classroom. Multiple levels of exposure for the teacher. And it isn't possible for teachers to always remain behind a safe 2m line in the classroom, as some people seem to think. The safety of pupils is their main concern and if there is an issue with a student/s the impact of trying to discipline that student diminishes if the student thinks they are not going to step over that line.

Regarding this thread generally, I do think it's important to try and understand each other's workplaces and work processes without judging and point scoring. It's not really a "who has it harder" competition. I just think there is a lack of understanding of how things are in schools. For example, I mentioned to some relatives working in the NHS about how the cleaning could be more regular in schools. They suggested that teachers should be doing their own cleaning of their own areas, as happens in their own NHS dept. They just didn't seem to understand that teachers don't have their "own areas" anymore, they are ALWAYS with children in different classrooms, supervising & teaching them, and can't leave 30 kids unsupervised for 15 mins while they go into the corridors and wipe the doors and stair rails from top to bottom. Incidentally, the same relatives have said that their regular appointment systems have been extended ie. appointments are more spread out to allow for cleaning between each patient. This is just impossible to implement in schools while children are in school full time. It may be possible if there was an attendance rota, but parents would be up in arms at that, clearly.

It's natural that we don't understand what someone's workplace is like unless we have worked in it. We should all be kinder and try to get a real understanding of what we are all working with in our workplaces.

Oh jeeeze. What's up with MN and the multiple posts?

Oh jeeeze. What's up with MN and the multiple posts?

If you look through the thread you will see I have answered your questions, as have others about a variety of work places.

I don’t work in a section with windows. There are higher risks for people working in areas where the air is pumped in by a ventilation system (see link). Many customers can’t wear a mask. The place is bigger but there are more people filling it, virus shed remains in the building etc.

It gets a bit ridiculous to keep rehashing the same points. The risks are different not less.

At the moment in the U.K. retail workers are at higher risk than HCPs but lower risk than security guards. It may be in two months that it turns out that teachers have the highest mortality rate of any profession, but at the moment there isn’t evidence that they are at greater risk.

At the moment I am an old asthmatic in one of the highest corona areas in one of the jobs with a high mortality rate.

If I get it I get it and if I die I die. But people still need to shop for essentials.