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It shouldn’t be close the schools, it should be make the schools safer!

68 replies

Clearasmuddypuddles · 01/11/2020 09:35

I am a teacher in a secondary school. I do not want schools to close. But I do want my job to be safer.

How about instead of the pointless campaigning to close schools we actually try and get people to listen to ways that will make it safer.

  1. mask wearing compulsory for teenagers even in classrooms. Yes they are uncomfortable and not nice, but it’s safer.

  2. cut class sizes in half at least, preferable to groups of 8. Logistics are difficult here, but stripping schooling back to just 3 hours a day, or a one week on one off plan would help with this. Cutting the curriculum to essential content only would also help.

  3. clean down desks after every lesson. Ours are done twice a day which isn’t enough.

  4. stop students congregating as groups of 100 in the canteen whilst queuing to buy junk food. Provide each child with a pack up that they eat at a classroom desk. No walking around site in large groups.

I would be interest to hear any other ideas people have that would make our schools safer!

OP posts:
Aragog · 01/11/2020 10:42

How about instead of the pointless campaigning to close schools we actually try and get people to listen to ways that will make it safer.

This is what many teachers and their unions have wanted from the start.

I don't know any teaching staff who have wanted schools closed. Teaching remotely isn't what most staff want - it's hard work, it takes away almost all the nice bits of teaching, it's just not ideal at all, for anyone.

However the persistent message from the government is that schools are safe do get on with it isnt helping anyone either. Staff and children are being out at risk, and working conditions aren't great. Stress and anxiety is high at times and for many being at school right now, under the current systems, just isn't working properly either.

Schools are NOT Covid safe at any age right now. Nothing has been put in place to make them. Schools are trying their best but the reality is that what the government and DfE have allowed simply isn't enough.

I caught Covid almost certainly from school, an infant school. I most likely picked it up from a symptom free young child. They're the only people I have prolonged or close contact with throughout my school day. As I'm clinically vulnerable I was being super careful in what I did both in and out of school. I was cleaning constantly between classes, I have used so much anti bac my hands were sore. I wore a mask whenever I was outside of the classroom. I ate my lunch alone every day. I had every door and window open, to the extent I was able as not all open much. None made any different. I still got it. I still ended up in hospital with dangerously high blood pressure caused by Covid.

Staff are separated at school, in bubbles, with no close contact between adults. Yet Covid got ten of our staff within three weeks, plus we had parents in affected classes testing positive too. We have no close contact with parents. It can't be a coincidence and all isolated cases now cannot?

Only other person I have close contact with is Dh. He has had no symptoms, he hasn't been in contact with anyone who has had Covid. The likelihood of him passing it to be was even lower than the chance at school.

In a week or so I will return to work, all being well. I'll have been away a month but hopefully things will have settled down and stabilised, through permanent ongoing mediation for me now, enough for me to return to work. Now hopefully I will have some immunity, at least for a whole.'I hope so as I was already vulnerable and the new complications add to that.

I also have arthritis. When I get cold it is really painful at times. So perhaps my next issue is how to teach effectively in a cold classroom with all the windows open throughout the winter without having to resort to wearing gloves!

Schools need to be safer for everyone.
For staff, for children and for the children's families.

The government and the DfE need to accept that schools aren't right now - they won't, they can't accept they got it wrong. But they need to do that we can move forward and put things in place to protect everyone better.

And the idea that 'kids don't get it and can't spread it ' mantra we heard, and many people still want to believe, needs to be scrapped. Until that belief goes no one will care enough to do anything.

I want schools open. I love my job in normal situations.

However, schools remain not Covid secure and that should be acknowledged by everyone too.

Hmmph · 01/11/2020 10:58

I’m sorry, I can’t find the research on surface transmission

SaltyAndFresh · 01/11/2020 11:01

Desk cleaning - I have to do so between every lesson, yet we have cases in the teens and by half term, 2.5 'bubbles' SI. I also have to move around corridors packed with pupils.

StellaGib · 01/11/2020 11:02

This article discusses the risk of surface transmission: www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/scourge-hygiene-theater/614599/

Ffsffsffsffsffs · 01/11/2020 11:08

I am pastoral in a large secondary, and we are sticking to all the guidelines. Mask wearing is almost 100% compliance in our bubble (of 300), high 90s in other year groups, hands sanitised whenever kids come into a classroom, washed on the way into school and before leaving, canteen thoroughly wiped between each break sitting.

I'm sick of the close the schools brigade - yeah, sure that would reduce cases, but is EVERYONE doing what they should outside of a school setting? Are parents' workplaces as covid compliant as mine? Are the kids mixing with others (not siblings) after school? Are parents honestly sticking to the rule of 6/tier 2/tier 3 restrictions? I bet, hand on heart, most aren't.

Blame eat out to help out or schools/unis going back, whatever. Sure, schools aren't the most covid-secure but kids are only there 7 hours a day, 5 days a week. Kids need to be in school, the first lockdown opened my eyes to some of the real horrors some of our kids are living with everyday. But the wider older society needs to accept responsibility too.

Ps I've just bought a shit load of vests and jumpers from primark to see me through, I have a hot water bottle in my desk drawer and a massive (ugly) coat to wear on duty. I don't see a way reducing class sizes can work in your average school, most are at or exceeding max capacity anyway. Remote learning only works if tech is available, Internet access reliable and available and parents engaged.

Glad I'm not SLT...

StellaGib · 01/11/2020 11:08

Surface transmission—from touching doorknobs, mail, food-delivery packages, and subways poles—seems quite rare. (Quite rare isn’t the same as impossible: The scientists I spoke with constantly repeated the phrase “people should still wash their hands.”) The difference may be a simple matter of time. In the hours that can elapse between, say, Person 1 coughing on her hand and using it to push open a door and Person 2 touching the same door and rubbing his eye, the virus particles from the initial cough may have sufficiently deteriorated.

The fact that surface areas—or “fomites,” in medical jargon—are less likely to convey the virus might seem counterintuitive to people who have internalized certain notions of grimy germs, or who read many news articles in March about the danger of COVID-19-contaminated food. Backing up those scary stories were several U.S. studies that found that COVID-19 particles could survive on surfaces for many hours and even days.

But in a July article in the medical journal The Lancet, Goldman excoriated those conclusions. All those studies that made COVID-19 seem likely to live for days on metal and paper bags were based on unrealistically strong concentrations of the virus. As he explained to me, as many as 100 people would need to sneeze on the same area of a table to mimic some of their experimental conditions. The studies “stacked the deck to get a result that bears no resemblance to the real world," Goldman said.

I don't think the argument is that handwashing or regular cleaning of frequently touched surfaces is pointless, but just that it isn't the main or really a significant way that covid is spread.

Airborne droplets or aerosols are the risk, so ventilation, distance and masks are the key issues.

A good case study of how the coronavirus spreads, and does not spread, is the famous March outbreak in a mixed-use skyscraper in Seoul, South Korea. On one side of the 11th floor of the building, about half the members of a chatty call center got sick. But less than 1 percent of the remainder of the building contracted COVID-19, even though more than 1,000 workers and residents shared elevators and were surely touching the same buttons within minutes of one another.

Mintjulia · 01/11/2020 11:10

You are completely reasonable.

My ds"'s school, they have to sanitise and put on masks before they get on the bus. School has a one way system. Parents are not allowed on site for school run unless they stay in cars.

Masks must be worn in the corridors by everyone, lockers are out of use. Meals are served in large tents plus dining room so year groups don't mix. Extra wash basins have been installed so teachers can wash hands whenever they wish. Mask wearing is allowed for pupils and visors for teachers.

So far no known cases. Fingers crossed we get through to Xmas. Good luck.

noblegiraffe · 01/11/2020 11:15

Thanks for those links. It seems the danger of surface transmission is overblown?
We're supposed to quarantine marking as well. The farce of not touching marked work for 48 hours before handing it back to kids that I'm breathing the same air as is something they find pretty amusing.

Schools need proper scientific advice, not political advice based on a lack of willingness to admit schools aren't safe and that they can't be arsed to spend any money on them.

rookiemere · 01/11/2020 11:26

I was talking about this to a friend yesterday. Our DCs are at private school, so they should have a bit of money to implement some measures, but haven't as far as I am aware.

Daily Temperature checking - some restaurants have a machine that checks your temperature before you enter - obviously there would be a cost involved though and may create a bottle neck at entry.

Perspex screen box for teachers so they could go into it before start of lessons and not come into contact with the DCs.

Hand sanitiser stations available throughout school.

Tests available at school for pupils above a certain age to self administer if they have symptoms. Actually scrap that - a certain amount of tests for randomised sampling on a regular basis, with the ability to get the tests turned around quickly- ideally on the same day.

rookiemere · 01/11/2020 11:27

Oh and masks for all senior school.

I've de registered from Us for them btw. I never had any issue with masks or other safety measures.

Noitjustwontdo · 01/11/2020 11:32

It’s bonkers that teachers don’t wear PPE, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

MiraWard77 · 01/11/2020 11:35

Interesting docs from the WHO here: https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/risk-comms-updates/update39-covid-and-schools.pdf?sfvrsn=320db233_2

And here: https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1303058/retrieve

Basically saying that schools shouldn't close BUT there should be all the same strategies as used in the community (masks indoors, distancing of 1m+ AT ALL TIMES) as well as:
• Keeping kids and staff in "small" bubbles (so probably not 250+ with teachers going between bubbles)
• Reducing class sizes to allow for 1m+ distancing in and out of lessons (via rotas of attendance such as that outlined by Kevin Courtenay of the NEU)
• Age appropriate mask wearing - at all times indoors in secondaries with breaks to take them off outside
• Proper ventilation of rooms AND allowing rooms to air out between lessons
• CV staff and students to be either WFH or provided with medical grade masks

This (the second) document was released in SEPTEMBER and has been ignored by the DfE who seem to have said that schools should just carry on as normal (with the windows open a bit).

Most schools are scared to do anything useful at all because they're not being directed to by the DfE.

We could be doing so much better.

Keeping schools the same undermines the lockdown for everyone else.

MiraWard77 · 01/11/2020 11:37

@rookiemere is this a sealed, airtight perspex box? It seems like aerosol transmission is a far bigger issue than droplets - hence the need for proper ventilation (and masks)

MiraWard77 · 01/11/2020 11:40

Nice easy info graphic from my first link, released a couple of weeks ago.

Clearly recommends alternating in-person learning with online/at home to reduce class sizes.

It could be easily done, particularly in secondaries.

It shouldn’t be close the schools, it should be make the schools safer!
passmethewineplease · 01/11/2020 11:46

Why are the desks only getting wiped twice a day? Ours are getting wiped like every hour, I dread to think how much we’re spending on disinfectant atm. 😳

Our school have a one way system round school. Only one parent allowed to do school run. Parents must wear masks. No loitering around. Markers in the playground where to stand. Teachers wear masks when moving around the school but not in their classroom. I do wonder how those students that struggle with communication would manage if their teacher is wearing a mask. My friends child is deaf and relies on being able to lip read as well as other stuff.

No mixing of staff/bubbles. Children wash their hands on arrival, before/after snack, after play/lunch and at home time. Staggered play/lunch. Lunch is eaten in the classroom not mixed in the hall.

Windows/doors open, slightly breezy but all children have their jumpers/cardigans on.

passmethewineplease · 01/11/2020 11:51

Whilst a mix of home learning would be ok for some j think there’s some families/children that would really struggle.

My child has SEN and is hard to teach he’s already significantly below his peers. He would not do well and the gap between him and his friends would only widen. Sad

HighNoon · 01/11/2020 11:52

People actually teaching and working in schools will know better than most what can be done to make them safer. The points you've put in your OP sound entirely sensible and feasible. I hope someone listens!!

cologne4711 · 01/11/2020 11:53

Just watching Kier Starmer saying school staff and children should be elevated to priority status equivalent to the nhs with regards to testing

Yes, before the October holiday teachers in Germany were being tested every two weeks. I don't know if they are still doing it, they were going to discontinue it (this is in North Rhine Westphalia) but maybe they've now decided to continue. I was a bit surprised when staff and pupils weren't prioritised here.

BiBabbles · 01/11/2020 11:59

I think there is room for discussion on what is considered "essential content" (maybe unpopular, but I don't see DT skills as less essential than English lit.), but otherwise I completely agree -- as others said that's what many have wanted for a while.

Appuskidu · 01/11/2020 12:03

A national WEAR A VEST campaign to stop parents and kid complaining that it's cold.

This!

It’s a no brainer as far as I can see-it would cost nothing. They could wheel out some young social influencer in a snazzy vest and a few posters and job done! ‘Layer up to help out!’

It’s the complete ignoring of what schools are like and not mentioning it at all that’s so bizarre? Shouting ‘schools must not close’ and they are VITAL is all well and good, but why not address any of the actual problems?

Why is the guidance so crap? It say is social distancing (Primary) and masks are not to be worn. Why? It deliberately gives any guidance as being ‘where possible’ so all heads interpret it differently. Why?

Deliberate or just incompetent?

Aragog · 01/11/2020 12:03

CV staff and students to be either WFH or provided with medical grade masks

If only! Instead I was teaching right across school in over crowded rooms and no SDing. It felt inevitable I would catch it. And I did. No amount of me being careful could prevent it in the end.

StaffAssociationRepresentative · 01/11/2020 12:05

All we ever wanted is for schools to be safe.

(Lots of mn believe the opposite)

#followtherules

Aragog · 01/11/2020 12:07

A national WEAR A VEST campaign to stop parents and kid complaining that it's cold.

Ready for returning to school once sick leave finishes I have bought some thermal vests from M&S and ordered some fingerless gloves! Need to order some thermal tights next I think.

MiraWard77 · 01/11/2020 12:27

@Aragog

CV staff and students to be either WFH or provided with medical grade masks

If only! Instead I was teaching right across school in over crowded rooms and no SDing. It felt inevitable I would catch it. And I did. No amount of me being careful could prevent it in the end.

We could say the same about all the other recommendations that have been ignored.

All together they might have stopped you catching it and the levels of infection from getting to this point in the first place.

TiersTiersTiers · 01/11/2020 12:29

Indeed schools must be kept open.
There have been numerous suggestions to reduce risks which should be followed