To think that in the future lockdown will be studied as an example of effective propaganda?

[Jericoo]

I remember studying different examples of propaganda when I was at school, mostly in the context of wartime efforts. In the context of lockdown, all it took was a 3-word slogan and people abandoned all of their civil liberties! Astonishing.

Oh, it's gone from a joke to a semi-joke already! The clip proves what I said - he was trying to communicate the importance of good hand hygiene

@middleager me too and the comparison with Boxer eager to work himself half to death to trot off happily to the glue factory struck me.

It doesn’t really matter since this is fiction and we can draw many conclusions from many different perspectives.

I forgot about this

news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-jenny-harries-criticised-for-patronising-remark-about-exemplar-preparedness-11975652

I was sympathetic to the fact that this was an unprecedented situation but this changed my opinion massively

Oh, it's gone from a joke to a semi-joke already! The clip proves what I said - he was trying to communicate the importance of good hand hygiene

The clip proves that he had a cavalier ignorant attitude to what is a highly infectious disease.

Joke / semi-joke - makes no difference in the slightest. He and his government are responsible for many more deaths than needed to happen, and Johnson himself is at the heart of that.

Corona was and is not a joke or semi joking matter. At a time when other countries were either rigorously implementing track and trace or locking down, he was joking about shaking hands (Valance’s face says it all) with Covid patients, letting Cheltenham etc go ahead, and talking about singing Happy Birthday.

Not sure how this country’s terrible corona record is a matter for debate. Do some people actually think our government has done well ?

there are still more than twice as many people dying from flu and pneumonia than covid.

I find that very hard to believe - where is your proof? In this part of the world flu cases are dramatically lower than usual. Also, there is a vaccine for flu and people can have it if they wish. Pneumonia is not very contagious, and often follows on from other infections, including covid.

@whatisgoingtohappen

I think it will be studied in terms of incompetence rather than propaganda. Very good quarantining and test and trace from back in February would have avoided the number of deaths and the economic destruction that we have.

What she/he said.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/30/dossier-alleges-cummings-may-have-perverted-course-of-justice-in-account-of-lockdown-trip

"For the record, I detest Johnson and can never forgive him for this mess" Which mess was that? I hadn't realised that he'd created the virus and he's been dealing with it in much the same way as all the other countries.

I mean yes stupid things like not sacking Cummings, but that made no real difference to the country as a whole.

I agree.

I don’t believe the conspiracy theories surrounding this as such. But it is an effective study on how to get a society to largely capitulate... could potentially be dangerous knowledge in the wrong hands (maybe it’s already in the wrong hands!)

@Mintychoc1

Historians will look back and marvel that weren’t street riots, when cases like Dominic Cummings were all over the news. Instead we sat at home and painted rainbows and clapped the NHS, like a bunch of Stepford Wives.

I do hope that all the quasi-political digs apply equally to the rest of Europe who are also re-introducing lockdowns. A few months ago weren't the criticisms that lockdown hadn't happened sooner?

@Mimishimi

It's propaganda. It's a tool of the same sort who brought us the 3rd Reich - powerful businessmen and corporate interests. The key is in the phrase..

"we're all in this together".

To defend this statement against the backlash it received... she is comparing the TOOL used... not the people using it. That’s how I read it anyway. Propaganda is propaganda. Regardless of its ultimate aim.

Don’t try to shut down a debate with emotive language. It’s not helpful.

@TicTacTwo

There wasn't enough scientific knowledge about Covid-19 in March to use words like propaganda. Propaganda suggests a sinister motive and I think that the March goal of protecting the NHS was a reasonable reason to exercise caution. The science seemed to flip flop daily - for example kids were super spreaders one day and didn't transmit at all the next and it is reasonable that the scientists and policy makers needed time to make plans.

Johnson probably imagined that 2020 would be a piece of piss after his 80 seat majority. He signed the Withdrawl Agreement and probably thought that he just had to bide his time until a major party by Big Ben with his Brexiteers at the stroke of midnight. He'd seal his place in history as a patriot like his hero Churchill before he left office for someone else to deal with the fallout and make his money in the private sector again.

Brexit is a different kettle of fish and the blatant propaganda and lack of consequence for the people promoting lies will be studied in the future.

^ This is spot on.

Ffs. Most governments can't even organise a puss up in a brewery let alone co-ordinate a global fucking pandemic! Total nutjobs!

Ffs, this thread is another example of the black/white polarisation of opinion that seems to be happening everywhere atm... It's perfectly possible to appreciate that media manipulation /propaganda happened and is happening without denying the existence of the virus or the necessities of dealing with it.

In the same way, for example, that it is perfectly possible to talk about the conflict surrounding trans rights activism and women's rights without being hateful towards or phobic of transpeople.

Things aren't as simplistic as is often implied.

I don’t think the people countering the propaganda label aren’t aware that there was manipulation involved in the messaging - especially at the beginning of the first lockdown.

However acknowledging that is quite different to thinking it was state sponsored propaganda for intentionally nefarious purposes IMO @Bathrum.

I agree with pps who say that Brexit, on the other hand, has involved propaganda.

What was different about Brexit compared to other political controversies that justifies the term 'propaganda' in the former but not the latter?

It's more like a study of ineffective propaganda imo. So many people are ignoring guidelines it's become a bit of a joke.

@Yellownotblue

designed to make people comply with draconian restrictions by scaring them.

But why? Why do you think the government wants to restrict your freedoms? Do you think the government wants to crash the economy? That it wants millions more people on benefits? That it wants to bankrupt the NHS? That it is actively seeking ways to be unpopular?

Or do you believe this is all part of a plan to introduce a police state - when all evidence points to the fact that law enforcement is severely under resourced, and even serious crimes are overwhelmingly not brought to prosecution?

Flinging billions at companies like Deloittes and Serco has meant that they've lined the pockets of their chums very nicely.

And it's muddied the waters beautifully for the fallout from Brexit. It'll be down to Covid now.

Disaster capitalists will be rubbing their hands with glee and this government is both capitalist and a disaster.

@Jericoo

The idea that you could ever make it illegal to see family, especially family that may be ill with a life-limiting illness and not have long left, is just crazy. How can the government tell me I cannot see those that I love. It's dystopian. But if you disagree with it then you're cruel and heartless - as if believing people shouldn't be allowed to see their families isn't cruel and heartless?

This is a good point. Rightly or wrongly my siblings and I continue to visit my elderly, shielding mother every other day. There is no law that would make us stop or limit visits to one sibling. However for her sake we visit one by one, so we’re complying as much as makes sense in our circumstances.

@LakieLady
So COVID is a hoax that the world is going along with so the UK government can avoid embarrassment about the economic impact of Brexit? That's your view?

I think the UK will be studied as an example of ineffective propaganda

The contrasting examples will be authoritarian regimes who were prepared to use state power to impose strong restrictions (China), the geographically fortunate (New Zealand), the experienced from flu and SARS1 and well educated (Taiwan and Hong Kong), those who could rely on population consent and compliance (Germany).

*Flinging billions at companies like Deloittes and Serco has meant that they've lined the pockets of their chums very nicely.

And it's muddied the waters beautifully for the fallout from Brexit. It'll be down to Covid now.

Disaster capitalists will be rubbing their hands with glee and this government is both capitalist and a disaster.*

I reckon this is why Cummings hasn't left- he needs taxpayers to pay for the AI firms that he is linked with.

Ineffective propaganda more like.

@Ethelfleda, I don’t agree at all. First of all, I think you will find that the “powerful business interests” were very much opposed to various steps that were taken by the government (eg lockdown, tiers, FCO travel advisories, guidance against travel etc).

Secondly, there is a difference in nature, not just in degree, between 3rd Reich propaganda and the Covid public information campaigns. There are public info campaigns against smoking, against junk food, against drink driving, against unsafe sexual practices - are these also worthy of Nazi comparisons? Why is Covid singled out as being like the 3rd Reich?

It’s like comparing apples and moth balls. The comparison is so remote that it doesn’t bring anything to the debate. It elicits a skin reaction, because who wants to be compared to Hitler? So I’d argue that the 3rd Reich comparison is itself the attempt to shut down the debate with emotive language, which is why it is so unhelpful.

Of course, it also ignores the barbaric murder of millions by Nazis, and as such it is very insensitive.