White people race issues

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Ok so this is inspired by a few things including the "guess my ethnicity" posts, Mariah Carey's recently published memoirs and a lot of articles I've read about blackfishing. Bear with me! I'm hoping maybe someone can help me articulate what I'm trying to say!

So, to be clear I'm an entirely white person. I look it. I've got two white parents. I live in the UK and I've never been a victim of racism but have definitely been the beneficiary of white privilege. You could stop analysing my position right there - but I think that's possibly a problem!

My parents are from different European countries and vary quite a lot in terms of appearance i.e. skin colour, hair texture etc. I look completely like the paler one. As a child and continuing to this day, I've got lots of insecurities about my appearance related to this and maybe I shouldn't because they, excuse the pun, "pale" in comparison to those who are having an interracial experience, but they are genuine to me and they honestly cut me to my core sometimes. Things like, why is my hair such a mess of weird curl/non curls so that I always look messy in comparison to my school friends? Why does it hurt that no one can quite believe one half of my heritage from looking at me? Why can't I stay in the hot sun for more than 15 minutes when all my cousins can play out for a day with no issue? I know that these sound trivial, but honestly they never felt trivial to me as a child knowing little about history and politics. I never knew anyone growing up who could relate to this experience but I have since met people with a similar background, one I can think of in particular, and I instantly knew and recognised the hurt in him over this and I'm sure he gravitated towards me because of this. I couldn't help him unfortunately! These days I genuinely hide the one half of myself because I just feel like I can't deal with it. For example, I had counselling from someone from the one parent's country for 6 months and I tied myself in knots trying to never reveal to her my own background because I literally just couldn't take the, oh you don't look it! Ridiculous, I know.

Looking at my family more widely, these issues are sadly are not inconsequential. My grandmother doesn't have a great relationship with all her children and grandchildren to say the least. It seems like, being the palest, I've been a favourite grandchild because it fits with her ethnic notions of herself. Her darkest grandchild didn't even get a visit until 6 months after she was born and, amongst the whole family, she has been the butt of plenty of jokes about her "true" origins. To be fair to my grandmother, she's probably damaged too. We forget sometimes but within Europe we've got quite a legacy of conflict and she like many others was caught up in it, forced to leave her birth country (a third country in this) at a young age and who knows what trauma has gone with all that, and it has presumably been bound up to an extent with issues ethnicity. It's all quite complicated. I could go on and on here.

My not British parent has a bit of a love hate relationship with the UK meanwhile. He always wanted me to grow up here for a better quality of life and made little effort to connect me with his culture in some ways. But in his early years here I think he too was a victim of albeit not traumatic discrimination here. He's described being stopped by the police for no reason and needing his father in law to vouch for him for example. I've seen similar happen to him passing through customs plenty times. And he blames the UK for historical conflict relating to his country on a military level. The fact that he has made me British but that he also hates the British quite hurts me as well.

I could go on and on with all of these stories but what I'm trying to say is that, although we are all white, ethnicity remains a defining experience in my life and family and not always a positive one.

As a child I actually took a lot of solace from Mariah Carey talking about her biracial experience, and I've just been remembering that while reading her memoir. I appreciate that in the current climate that almost sounds offensive since the two experiences cannot at all equate, but before I had a clue about all the politics, that's how it felt. And I borrowed lots of black women's hair tips and felt comforted by them as well. But there were probably times were all this could have led to some overstepping e.g. I did try braids as a teenager!

Now, I'm trying to address an issue here. I know white people have taken on whiteness for personal benefits. But also, now that we've done that, we've got some problems of our own around ethnicity and no ongoing way to discuss them, or a sort of enforced repression around them, and it's causing problems for us and for others. At least, that's how it feels to me.

And now I think partly because we've got no ongoing discussion there, people are inserting themselves into issues of blackness to compensate, as perhaps I once did. I was thinking about this with Rita Ora and accusations of blackfishing. I think she does this and it's not excusable, but I wonder if it happens because there isn't a ready mode of self-expression around her actual ethnicity which surely encompasses some trauma as well so it's easier to borrow someone else's. I wonder about Kylie Jenner too. I hate how she profits from her constructed appearance. But I wonder if it's been strange for her that her sisters have this evident Armenian heritage, and that being as it were "whiter" she has felt somehow lacking and has had to construct for herself a whole persona to compensate. There is this whole sense of whiteness as a nothingness that I think leaves people psychologically vulnerable. I don't know. Something has gone awry!

So, the AIBU is... to think we have to find better ways as white people about dealing with our own ethnicity and heritage? How do we do this? I feel a bit repressed into an interpretation of "whiteness" that doesn't express my experience in many ways, but I worry that my expressions of that might come out wrong.

Also I know it could be annoying to recentre whiteness in this way, but I also think experiences like mine are no less real regardless of what else is happening and the point is that whiteness virtually never ceases even among white people to cause hurt. It can't be dismantled without looking at it.

You are right, but this thread probably won't go well because white people aren't "meant" to talk about this. But it would be great if we could.

But no-one is saying white people don’t have issues/challenges/problems. Of course you can talk about this.

But you won’t experience the systemic racism that black people do.

@Ilovesausages

But no-one is saying white people don’t have issues/challenges/problems. Of course you can talk about this.

But you won’t experience the systemic racism that black people do.

I can't see how anyone can put it any better than this. It sounds like you have family issues. Not race issues.

It sounds hard OP what you have experienced. Lots of complicated feelings.

I know it was not the main point, but no one owns braids. Or everyone owns braids. Didn't Boudicca have braids? Honestly it is such an instinctive way of dealing with hair I imagine most cultures would invent it even if they hadn't seen it on others.

I don't think the OP even uses the word race. She was talking about ethnicity and heritage. . And yes white people can be the subject of bullying/bad treatment because of their ethnicity, skin colour, language, traditions , history of the region they come from etc.

Of course white people cam have issues around identity. But, from what I've read, your issues aren't exclusively about being white. It's about being white with varying ethnic lineage.
The "white" issues you speak of wouldn't affect someone who is, for example, white with along line of British heritage. They would have a firm sense of identity and belonging. Your issue is much like black people in Britain feeling othered with little sense of true belonging. But of course, you won't suffer the systemic racism black people do. That doesn't diminish the issues you have though and it's good to talk about these things.

@Frequentcarpetflyer

I don't think the OP even uses the word race. She was talking about ethnicity and heritage. . And yes white people can be the subject of bullying/bad treatment because of their ethnicity, skin colour, language, traditions , history of the region they come from etc.

the thread title is 'white people race issues'

I totally agree that I've never experienced nor will experience systemic or other type of racism.

I think what I'm trying to say is that ethnicity, identity, skin colour etc. aren't non issues even within groups of people who are entirely white, but we seem to have stopped talking about it for some reason, or at least I can't really detect it in the public discourse. I think that silence could have a negative impact. I feel it does at a personal level, but I also wonder if it has a wider impact with negative consequences for others too.

The use of the word race is complicated. Thought it was relevant since I'm talking about issues like blackfishing. In addition to that, the use of the word is less clear in my second language and the way my e.g. grandmother would understand and use it.

What do you mean when you say "WE seemes to have stopped talking about it"? Who are "we"?
I think a lot white people don't talk about it because, for example a Brit living in Britain who a long lineage of British ancestry would feel a strong sense of self. It's where immigration comes into play at some point (whether recently or historically) that people may feel conflicted eith identity and who they are.

It's a fair question about "we". I don't know. I'm just not ever reading articles about this. Even for someone whose recent heritage is exclusively British, we are 4 nations with several langauges etc. so I'm sure there are more people with identity issues.

I think there are spaces and families where there is a White heritage and features hierarchy and that there is a lot more mixing with other ethnicities in many White families than some will admit that also comes into play.

I'm from the US and my mother's side is mainly European (at least that her side will admit to, and I don't have records to say otherwise even if there is a lot of suspected White passing going on a couple generations back). There is definitely the type of lighter kids are better within the communities I was in and lightening kids and making features more acceptable wasn't an issue when I was a child - I started to get bleached before I went to school, when I started to get ill in middle school, I was complimented on how I must have stayed out of the sun because I 'now just look tan'. They scrambled to claim Irish heritage because me and my great grandmother have green eyes, but I've found no evidence of this claim - it was just better sounding within this structure than certain other parts of Europe. Within schools, within other institutions, only certain parts of Europe really were discussed especially when it came to American heritage, and it's even more restricted I find in discussing it in the UK.

We had the same "jokes" and rumours of infidelity involving several family members which can be a mindfuck for a child. Not only was my father's paternity question (he's the oldest, only one without blue eyes), but so was my own - none of my siblings or I look a thing alike, and it wasn't until I was an adult I could come to accept that it was because he and I both have the same physical traits that aren't their ideal of 'ideal'. I got a passport photo of myself in a blue collared shirt (the kind he used to wear to work) and I was like shocked at the similarities after all these years.

At times, I've attached myself to being Mestizo or Latina by blood through him as a way to explain some of what I've been through, but the vast majority of systems I've lived within had similar shit for being Greek or Italian or other less well-liked Europeans if you had the wrong complexion. The Greek kids at my school got all sorts and I grew up with kids who were just various mixes of White European who got called mongrels right along with kids like me (my mother was the worst for doing this that I ever met, would call me and others Heinz 57 mongrel for not fitting her idea of one ethnicity. She'd call herself White, but I couldn't, even though we were often the same shade & I have lighter eyes, she really hated that).

I do think there are people whose families have been British for generation who also have this type of conflict, but there are also others like FTMF30 mentioned of all backgrounds, not just immigrants where this isn't something than concerns them just as there are people of all sexualities who never really feel any need to discuss it. Different things pull at different people, and I think that's fine, it's not something everyone needs to discuss.

I agree would be great to discuss this more on its own and that there are systems involved in perpetuating this without having to caveat that it isn't the same as with other groups (who also have their own intergroup hierarchies in many spaces and families that are different to systemic intragroup issues). It isn't about not having a strong sense of self, but recognizing intergroup issues and systemic pressure to maintain them can affect people too. I mean, there is this whole idea of White beauty -- but it's a very specific kind of White that actually many White ethnic groups don't meet and I think there is room for White people to discuss that as well as wider discussion of how it impacts other groups.

With regards to your benefitting from Mariah Carey talking about her experiences. This isnt the same as you but I went through some horrible (though less horrible than the things other people go through) growing up and as an adult. I personally found (and still find) "Still I rise" by Maya Angelou such a helpful poem, it is actually probably my favourite poem. That doesnt mean I am comparing myself to her, or implying that my experiences were the same/as bad - the poem is about racism/black peoples experiences in America as well as her own life experiences. However, Maya Angelou was a poet and part of her extraordinary was translating her personal experiences into something broader and profoundly human whilst retaining their power and personalness. There is nothing to feel guilty about when it comes to relating, on a human level, with someone elses eperiences. Actually that is what makes us human. If you or me were to counter someone talking about their experiences of racism with an "actually I experienced exactly the same/I do understand because XYZ" that would be wrong. If we were to derail a conversation about BLM by arging ""white people experience racism too, listen to meeeeeeee" that would be wrong. But finding Mariah Carey's description of her problems personally helpful to you? Thats nothing to feel guilty about!

That's so interesting to hear your experience. Thank you for sharing it. There is a lot there in what you are saying, I have reread several times to unpack and I'm still thinking about it! Several things I can relate to my own family as well.

I typed that quickly and missed out a lot of words. I think it makes sense though!
Also - I think it would be more helpful to frame your issues as "identity issues" rather than racial issues since that feels more accurate. Of course racism/ideas about racial ideal can frame everyones experience of their identity. For example the fetishisation of long blonde hair in some parts of society is linked to funny ideas around ideal whitness (as well as youth and a load of other stuff). It isn't racist if every single woman on real housewives of... had the same long beach blonde hair or if a grandmother goes on about the younger childs beautiful angelic blonde hair whilst ignoring the older childs brown hair. On a social level there is something funny going on there, but framing it as racism is incorrect I think.

Sorry my last one was to @BiBabbles

Thank you @yetanothernamitynamechange I agree with you I guess I just second guess myself sometimes. I must read the poem

'White' is an all-encompassing category and there's lots of variation and difference within that- my children are white but mixed ethnicity due to having parents from different white backgrounds and countries. Colour of white does come into it too, you stick out in a lot of European countries if you are very pale (the RosBifs on the beach) and you can't necessarily 'pass' as another ethnicity just because you are white.

There is also stigma and discrimination against certain white groups, in fact, there was a thread about this the other day about lying about your origins, no-one thought it was a good thing to do but everyone understood or had examples of why people might quickly sometimes use an easier to swallow identity rather than provoke negative images or questions.

I don't know what I'm trying to say but clearly there have been huge ethnic conflicts in Europe so I don't think by feeling sometimes that it affects you personally is a weird thing. It is often related to ethnicity but also to colour- witness the prejudice Roma people face, and being identifiably different looking (or 'passing') is part of that. Families are also complicated and sometimes one child is favoured due to all kinds of reasons, what they look like can play into that too (although not always in straightforward ways).

White is complicated, if you are of mixed parentage, it does throw up issues, I am aware of this occasionally in my own children, however, I also think because they aren't identifiably a different colour they often can sidestep these issues or think about them in their own time. They don't experience racial prejudice for sure (although they have experienced prejudice towards their heritage which is upsetting).

a Brit living in Britain who a long lineage of British ancestry would feel a strong sense of self.

I am not British but Welsh - with quite a bit of Irish in the mix a couple of generations back. I have never felt British and never identify as British. I've lived in England for much of my life but I vividly remember the bullying at school when I first moved here because I had an accent and used different vocabulary. My grandmother was Irish and remembered the discrimination when she came here to nurse.

Thanks London.

I wonder if the way we have or haven't addressed UK internal identity issues maybe hasn't served us well in recent times.

I notice it's close to 50 50 on the vote. I'm wondering where people feel like I'm being unreasonable as most commenters have acknowledged some of the themes. Perhaps it's in the use of the word "race".

Lots of human experiences and feelings are actually pretty universal and the idea that they aren't because we can't cross some essential race barrier is pretty racist.

I think the idea that people draw from the experiences and ways others around them deal with and talk about them is inevitable. It's not blackfishing or anything else. You read about MC's experiences and they resonate with your own. You see someone deals with their hair being wild with braids effectively, and you use the same technique on your own difficult hair. Someone famous wears an outfit and millions of young women want to copy it.

That's how culture works, that's how human beings work.

Try having a Chinese grandparent and being very white but having people constantly remark that "you look as if you could be Asian" in a joking way, or "which country do you come from?". Thats ok because its not meant in a nasty way but I have epicanthic folds and typically Asian eyes and some other features but I've lost count of the times I've been told by other ethnicities who typically have darker skin that "you don't understand racism because you're white". Just try buying sunglasses that fit!

I hate the idea that ethnicity can be calculated at a glance on the basis of skin colour (which can vary anyway according to season).

Plenty of Europeans, particularly in the north of Scandinavia, have a significant mixture of recent Asian ancestry, as do parts of Eastern Europe.

But because people who even have a Han Chinese parent often come out as passing for European, we are so often told or disbelieved that we cannot be mixed race, because increasingly what you read about racism is all about having black skin.

I work with families and kids who have lived overseas for a long time and then return to the UK.
eg, white British family, parents work at a hospital in Thailand for 10 years, then come back to UK.

These kids often experience a disconnect between who they are and the kids they meet at school here. They struggle with identity and belonging and not fitting in. They struggle with split loyalties and mixed feelings towards the UK.

I think some of the thigns you are referring to fit into these categories, they are issues of identity and where do I fit in.
It is especially hard when the extended family don't understand the struggle the kids face too.

I really appreciate people sharing their really interesting and different experiences and perspectives. I wouldn't know where to talk about this IRL.

I can see that a lot of hurt can be caused when the way people perceive you doesn't align with the way you identify and understand yourself. I do think it's problematic how much we try to interpret from a person's appearance. Or accent or whatever it may be.