To ask why there is such food poverty.

[Helendee]

Please no flaming as I genuinely am seeking answers as to why so many children are going to school hungry these days.
This is not a critical or inflammatory post, I just want to know what’s gone wrong.
Obviously many of us are struggling financially because of Covid but food poverty was a huge problem before that.
Is it that benefit levels are too low to adequately feed our children?
What can we do to ameliorate the situation?

@claffy123, is This Bread and Butter Thing in your area? Worth a look.

People on benefits still have to pay rent/mortgage. Benefits doesn't mean unemployed so possibly still have childcare costs/travel expenses etc.
My total income (ie including all benefits including housing) are less than yours were. My rent is more than your mortgage.

You shouldn't be 'poor' with a nmw topped up by benefits if you opt for a property that doesn't wipe out your income and have a modest lifestyle.

You will struggle if you expect the same property than someone who earns twice as much and enjoy a simikar lifestyle.

And if you're already living in the cheapest property you can find? And don't expect the same lifestyle? Just to be able to feed and clothe yourself and children? Then what? Because that's what we are talking about here.

@TheFormerPorpentinaScamander, exactly my point. You can work and not that much better off a family on benefits, yet manage to feed your family without needing food banks, so the issue is not just about benefits being set too low.

It's mostly about personal responsibility. There may be some people where life deals an unexpected blow and that's what benefits are for.

However, all this business of, there are no shops near by, they don't own a fridge (I don't believe that accounts for the majority of people struggling to eat).

My husband and I bought a house where we checked that either one of us could pay the mortgage if the other couldn't work temporarily. Before having children, we waited until a time where we had a home, jobs, and worked out what a child would cost in terms of nursery fees, after school club and additional food, clothing costs. We were together 7 years and married before we had children so we knew each other well and it seemed our relationship was forever.

We bought our final house (had previously moved a lot doing property up to make money) in a rural area.we chose this because we can drive do it doesn't matter.

Surely you have to consider before having children, can I get to the shops for food, can I get to the doctor and dentist, can I get somewhere to buy clothes? If you don't drive and can't afford transport how the heck did you think it was going to work when you had kids??

I know marriages break down sometimes but if you have been together a while and are secure then there is less chance of it not working than hoping from man to man having children.

We worked really hard to get degrees and later PhDs to get good jobs. Not available to all but we worked hard to give us the best security.

We only had two children so as to comfortably afford them.

The problem is so many people make poorly thought through choices then expect others to pick up after them. Are all of the people in "poverty" there because life surprised them?

But a lot of the people using food banks are in work
Personally I'd call £600 per month a lot better off!

@WitchesGlove

With further education/ apprentiships etc, you still need to factor in costs of housing, food, bills, transport etc, so many people can not opt for this.

In previous posts, you have mentioned you unfortunately had to drop out of uni, you had "only" minimum wage jobs and your parents were disparaging saying you'd end up in a "fish and chip" shop. I'd hope that given your personal experiences, you'd have more empathy/ understanding of people in similar circumstances. I hope that your personal situation is better now.

Why can people ‘only’ ever earn minimum wage?
What’s to stop them studying/ gaining promotion/ building up a business

It's about the devil you know, rather than taking a leap into the unknown.

Going out of your comfort zone is a huge undertaking, emotionally, mentally and in the case of work financially.
If everyone is honest with themselves, as we get older, more settled, we find big changes more difficult to deal with. When we have children who depend on us, we need stability... change does not offer that.

An other big chunk is personality, foresight and intellect. If there is doubt, no understanding or luck of vision about the rewards, why move away from the comfortable stability you know?

@TheFormerPorpentinaScamander, you're not getting it. Whether working or not, if a family with the same disposable income can manage to feed themselves then another similar family with the same disposable income should do too regardless of where their income comes from.

Yes they should. But they don't have the same disposable income! That's my point. When I worked I had more disposable income than I do now.

@MiddleClassMother

I have to agree with *@IceCreamAndCandyfloss* A lot can be done on a very low budget with some simple cooking skills. People are too quick to criticise the government and benefits system. Whereas a lot of people don't help themselves. Raising the NMW would help some people, yet kill smaller businesses who wouldn't be able to employ as many people.

IMO a business that requires it's employees wages to be topped up with benefits probably shouldn't be in business. If it was a requirement to pay a living wage and the business cannot cope, then in reality the business cannot cope.

Yes they should. But they don't have the same disposable income!
And my point is that some people working do have no more disposable income than families on benefits but never had to rely on food banks. So what do they do that the other family doesn't?

@Coolieloach

Oh and a very high link between low intelligence poverty

Maybe on the day those with low intelligence were tested, they hadn't eaten since the day before, due to their poverty.

There are routes out of NMW jobs for most people.

For example, my OH worked in the equivalent of NMW roles for years (actually earning less than the current NMW in many of them) because he struggled at school for various reasons, and left at 16 with minimal qualifications. However he taught himself programming and carried on developing his knowledge until eventually he was able to get an entry level role (still on min wage). He spent his evenings and weekends reading and studying, and by a lot of hard work was able to progress to where he currently is.

It isn't impossible to progress without degrees and qualifications in many roles (admittedly there are some for which a degree is essential but you can get out of min wage roles without one) but to get to a certain earning level, say 35-40k a year, could require a lot of effort for - in the immediate term - no real gain. There are some people who may genuinely not be able to make it out of minimum wage roles (thinking of a chap I know who collects trolleys, he is not too bright, I think may have some learning difficulties, but is happy doing his job and scraping by) but there are still opportunities for others. Places like McDonalds, a lot of the managers and supervisors started there at the bottom. If you're prepared to put the time in and learn the skills, you can progress well in an organisation like that, same as other retail outlets.

However the routes to a higher salary are not always easy; my OH had to relocate several times - I'll admit that's easier as a single person than a family, he lived in bedsits with no cooking facilities, ate a limited diet because that was all he could afford, ended up in considerable debt at points. Had no social life, no foreign holidays, etc. But saw that as a means to an end, and there was no alternative.

I can see though that if you are from a family or area where few people work in anything other than NMW roles, the poverty of expectation is such you can perceive that is all you will ever do. It takes a lot to have enough self belief to push forward in that situation.

@MayYouLiveInInterestingTimes the ability to make profit from coin meters was stopped decades ago. Housing, as you note, needs revision but like so many things, finding best practice elsewhere would be better than more and more of the same old same old failed methods.

Creating two smug elites and ignoring a) the harm to those who cannot fit into either and b) the harm to those who do in theory fit, but cannot escape, is a failed system. Smug security of the same roof over your head for the rest of your life, at an affordable price, is a failure when it causes either under occupation of the country's housing stock, and when it causes an inflexibility when people want or need to move readily from place to place.

Others will know of systems elsewhere, but I believe tenancy conditions are different, with private rentals on reasonable terms and for long contracts. I understand that Singapore is virtually all council housing, but not as understood here, because the state would stand in place of a head landlord, to ensure maintenance, and deal with antisocial problem occupants, but not to dole out whatever tenancies an official decrees. (They also aim to be a green city, covered with planting) I believe it isn't perfect, but it might be a starting idea, particularly now that mortgages on flats are nearly impossible, due to the cladding crisis.

@dontdisturbmenow

Yes they should. But they don't have the same disposable income! And my point is that some people working do have no more disposable income than families on benefits but never had to rely on food banks. So what do they do that the other family doesn't?

Yes some probably do. Sorry. I'm in a vile contrary mood and probably shouldn't be interacting with people today . I know what they do differently. Any one of the other reasons listed on this thread I suppose. I dont use foodbanks, well I did once but that's all. But I'm resourceful, know how to make "back of the fridge soup" and will go without to feed my children if I have to. Not everyone has those skills/a decent stocked spice rack/slow cooker to make cheap nutritious meals. I also don't put my heating on unless it's freezing because I can't afford heating and food. We have lots of snuggly blankets instead. Luckily my children always run hot so don't complain. And of course some (a small % I would bet) parents are just feckless

Lack of education and poor mental health caused by shit upbringing is more common than some people realise. :(

Whether working or not, if a family with the same disposable income can manage to feed themselves then another similar family with the same disposable income should do too regardless of where their income comes from

So untrue. I was on benefits for a little while (Tax credits & Co).
When I went back to work, on paper I had a similar amount of disposable Income.

But once I paid out for getting to work (car & fuel, office clothes, no more free school meals etc) I had a considerable amount less to spend on food and other items for DC.
Some foods where simply unaffordable.

@alexdgr8

for many struggling families everything is a hurdle. living way out, on a sink estate, long walk to infrequent bus, maybe 2 buses needed to get to supermarket/ town centre. then schlepping back with heavy bulky shopping, and local buses often stop early. plus the cost of bus fares. and having to drag young children along. things other people take for granted they don't have.

Being rural makes a huge difference to the choices you have to make. I personally was living rurally at the time because it was the only way to get out of temporary accommodation and into a permanent council property to give my kids stability.

Our poor MPs need their meals and drinks subsidised and they have to pay back the donors who put them in power. This costs the exchequer billions in unworkable, untenable, useless contracts.

There is simply no money left to feed the poor, sick, unfortunate and children.🤷‍♀️

There are a number of expedients which in theory, work nicely, but in practice are unreliable. You can often pick up nice items in charity shops, but not every month, in the sizes you want. Sometimes you can get masses of perfect strawberries from the open air market for two pounds, sometimes the mangoes you but are smelly and pulpy inside. There are some solutions which always work: Lidl pound land is the best mantra for a cheap nutritious shop, and will make a difference..

For a myriad of reasons, fifty years ago, kids were in the same boat as most of their peers ( well the student population in some schools,) relpared and ragged jumpers washed once a week were normal to see, and hand-me-down shoes, to big to stay on - these signs of poverty stood out less and were less of a stigma. Some non-absolute essential treats are as good as necessary if to never let your kids have them makes them stand out as under-privileged. If you have a small budget as little as £3 in the wrong direction can make a dent.

Fifty years ago, kids went out to work at 15 - and 14 before then, and they'd be bringing money into the house and supporting their own needs. If these youngsters had a job it was likely to be more secure than today. There were paper rounds, helping in shops after school etc and there probably wasn't an expectation for the kids to be studying all the time, if they didn't want to. A lot of things happened which we would think of as wrong which allowed mums on their own to work: pre and young teenagers minding very young siblings, probably. It is all wrong but it would have gone on and with borrowing from helpful neighbours and reciprocating the favour people got by. I surmise. I would say to anyone who queries why there is food poverty today, look at your own buffer zone and what how many hundred or thousands of pounds it is and how you paid for unexpected problems. It's that savings figure which makes a difference, imo.

Are school children educated to know that any government money they claim is actually provided by the taxes paid by other people?
I'm not sure they are -obviously if all the taxpayers are funding things, education etc and it's not a gov owned magic money tree, then it's a bit of a cheek to believe you are entitled to some of it.
Everyone gets 13 years of 'free' education - that's pretty generous. It's societal effects that means it is taken advantage of more by some than others.
But societal attitudes do change- the drop in teenage pregnancies being one. Whether that was influenced by reduced benefit payments I don't know.

Sorry. I'm in a vile contrary mood and probably shouldn't be interacting with people today
This made me smile

Not everyone has those skills/a decent stocked spice rack/slow cooker to make cheap nutritious meals. I also don't put my heating on unless it's freezing because I can't afford heating and food. We have lots of snuggly blankets instead. Luckily my children always run hot so don't complain.
And of course some (a small % I would bet) parents are just feckless
I agree, but that's why I don't think the issue is with benefits set too low. I do think though that the main issue is that people don't care much to think in terms of consequences. They do what their hearts tell them to do now without thinking it might mean being left with no money to put meal on the table.