To think if Sheila's wheels' old policy

[Faultymain5]

of giving good deals to women is discriminatory and against the law that there is no reason for a car insurance application to ask if you are male or female.

Just a fleeting thought as I discover whether my existing renewal quote is better than a new quote altogether.

@rashalert

No, *@Faultymain5*

Every thread is that 'kind of thread' and when we see the opportunity to correct this mistake-a mistake that never benefits women-we should always, always take it.

If we don't do that-pain in the bum though it is to correct it-the two terms will become interchangable and they most certainly are not!

I'd like to thank you for your input. Feel free to expand as much as you wish.

A bit off thread but o always think it would be great if there was a way of measuring if someone was driving tired, like a tiredness breathalyser. I’m sure it would benefit women a lot

Also I bet a lot of fathers would be stunned if they and their wives/ female partners took a tiredness breathalyser!

Also would save a lot of accidents!

@TheDowagerDuchessofMwwwahaha

Also would save a lot of accidents!

I have no doubt it would. Might actually make some of us actually rest rather than waiting for our other halves to notice we need the rest.

Women actually did really well out of this law change. Our insurance premiums went up, but we also go far better annuity rates (essentially, we got higher pensions).

Previously we'd got worse annuities than men because we live longer.

Sheilas wheels marketed to women drivers, but also insure men, so in that sense didn’t discriminate.
All insurers took into account the individuals answers into their risk calculation, including whether you are male or female. On a statistical basis the saving for women was due to the net lower cost in claims.

A challenge and EU ruling considered that discriminatory, and resulted in either female premiums going up to match males or the combination equalising with an increase and a reduction in premium. The majority are likely to be increases.
The insurance companies might end up paying out on an individuals claim more then you paid in premiums, but just like the bookmakers they end up taking more in everyone’s premiums then they pay out

When Sheila's wheels was really new DH got his insurance with them as they offered the best price, and then queried if the 'handbag cover' stated on his policy would cover his backpack. They took him very seriously not realising he just makes terrible jokes and reassured him it would. They don't seem to use that wording anymore.

A friend of mine who was an insurance adjustor told me that the starts showed women were more likely to have lots speed and therefore low cost accidents, carpark collisions etc whereas men were more likely statistically to have more major (and more expensive) accidents, which was why they used to offer women cheaper policies.

So all in all statistically it was correct. I'd loveto know who Sheila's Wheels' lawyers were. I might at least look up the ruling, as I can't see how they lost, but insurers can still discriminate against young people.

There was a company we used for our family's new drivers that cleverly got round the law by calling itself "Drive Like a Girl". They reckoned the boy racers would be too embarrassed to sign up.

I saw a guy get 10k quote😂 Not joking. We were asking if he tried to insure a helicopter. £10.000! Young, strong car.

Apparently insurers give crazy amounts if they don't want to insure you🤔

If you use any insurance price comparison and scroll down to the bottom there's always some batshit prices!

@DynamoKev

Discrimination (positive or negative, direct or indirect) is against the law. Only for reserved characteristics - it's still legal to charge very young and very old people extremely high premiums.

Yes that is true..but we were talking discrimination by sex here. Claims for younger drivers are very high and the premiums charged reflect this. I

Age isn’t a protected characteristic in discrimination legislation

Insurers can also produce the evidence that they use in the criteria from the questions asked.
There are generic statistics and personal elements.
Gender fell within the generic statistics on the cost of claims by females vs males, but is a protected characteristic.
Your past driving history gives the personal statistics (how long you have had a licence, claims to date, any motoring offences etc)

[quote SchrodingersImmigrant]@OrtamLeevz do you remember if the fatal accidents were mainly the driver victim or others killed as well?[/quote]
Don't know. Both, I dare say. The only two people I know personally who have been involved in such a crash, were responsible for killing other people - they themselves survived. They were both men and they both went to prison. Some decades apart I hasten to add; I don't normally make a habit of befriending dangerous drivers.

@tommika

Age isn’t a protected characteristic in discrimination legislation

Insurers can also produce the evidence that they use in the criteria from the questions asked.
There are generic statistics and personal elements.
Gender fell within the generic statistics on the cost of claims by females vs males, but is a protected characteristic.
Your past driving history gives the personal statistics (how long you have had a licence, claims to date, any motoring offences etc)

Whaaat. Age is a protected characteristic...

@OrtamLeevz thanks. I was just curious.

Just to be clear here, insurers can absolutely discriminate on age. Hence on travel policies you will often find an absolute age limit and young drivers pay more for cover. The legal logic is that insurers are able to demonstrate that there is a clear risk based reason for this approach, i.e. young drivers have far more accidents and they are on average more expensive. These are driven by injuries to individuals rather than damage to old cars. The sex case discrimination case which drove uniform pricing for men and women was known as Test Achats (a European case which was taken by the Belgian equivalent of Which?).

Learning point for those of you with teenagers who have just passed their test is that this can be statistically quite a dangerous time. I would strongly suggest you consider what is known as "black box" insurance which is a little cheaper (though you pay for the box), but tracks how fast a youngster drives, when they drives and other factors.

Oh yes, you are right they can. Age is one of the least protected characteristics.

Younger drivers are more likely to have accidents/claim. Of course their premiums should be higher.

@SchrodingersImmigrant Whaaat. Age is a protected characteristic...

This is what I thought, was about to break out the Equality Act 2010.

@Brainwave89 The legal logic is that insurers are able to demonstrate that there is a clear risk based reason for this approach, i.e. young drivers have far more accidents and they are on average more expensive. These are driven by injuries to individuals rather than damage to old cars.
And lawyers couldn't use the same reasoning? Since men tend to cause more deaths by driving than women do.

SchrodingersImmigrant

I don't think it's having a foreign name that they're pricing on, but they ask questions that tell them where you've passed your test and gained your driving experience.

Maybe their stats tell them that people who've learned to drive in certain countries and/or had most of their experience driving on the other side of the road are more likely to have accidents than people who've always driven in the UK?

We've both just bought our car insurance and the cheapest in both cases within a few pence was either Sheila's Wheels or esure and I think both of us have picked esure probably because Sheila's Wheels used to advertise using the 'if we need to attract women it needs to be flippant/silly' model, which is offputting.

[quote Faultymain5]**@Brainwave89* The legal logic is that insurers are able to demonstrate that there is a clear risk based reason for this approach, i.e. young drivers have far more accidents and they are on average more expensive. These are driven by injuries to individuals rather than damage to old cars.*
And lawyers couldn't use the same reasoning? Since men tend to cause more deaths by driving than women do.[/quote]
Exactly. The nightmare accident scenario for insurance companies is the 'car full of young men crashing and killing or seriously injuring them all' because this could lead to a multi million pound payout if there are survivors who need a lifetime of care, adapted housing and compensation for loss of earnings and pain and suffering.

Sadly this is quite common for young men and I don't think I've ever heard of similar accidents involving young women.

I have to admit, I would have liked to have seen gender remain as a factor in insurance. Although to some degree it was a proxy for many other risk factors, such as average miles driven and to a degree driving records. It is quite possible in time to come that age might also be removed from our risk assessment processes (it is in other countries), but the impact of this is that pricing would be more pooled, i.e. older drivers would pay more and younger drivers less. It is a philosophical question as to what we think is fair. For household insurance as an example, there is a scheme where most households pay a small addition so that households in high risk flood areas can maintain cover at a reasonable rate. Same idea, but pooling young drivers with older ones would have a significant impact.

@BarbaraofSeville

SchrodingersImmigrant

I don't think it's having a foreign name that they're pricing on, but they ask questions that tell them where you've passed your test and gained your driving experience.

Maybe their stats tell them that people who've learned to drive in certain countries and/or had most of their experience driving on the other side of the road are more likely to have accidents than people who've always driven in the UK?

We've both just bought our car insurance and the cheapest in both cases within a few pence was either Sheila's Wheels or esure and I think both of us have picked esure probably because Sheila's Wheels used to advertise using the 'if we need to attract women it needs to be flippant/silly' model, which is offputting.

That would be absolutely fair point if he didn't pass the test here. And www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-43011882