About the invoice?

[Floating662]

I've recently started as a cleaner for a large-ish company, to take the role they informed me I'll have to be self employed.

I have no prior experience of self employment but agreed to the terms and registered with HMRC in a timely fashion. Did some research. All fine.

On my first day (30th sep) when talking me through everything the manager said she would be sending me the invoice template for me to fill in and send to her by the 21st of the month.

I sent a polite email last week requesting said invoice template as I hadn't received it but received no reply so made my own as the deadline was approaching.

What I created was a professional standard invoice and sent it to her yesterday afternoon in pdf format (as reccomeded by the guide I was using)

I received a snippy reply this morning telling me it needs to be in microsoft word format and to redo it and send it today.

I wrote one out on Word and sent that.

I then receive another reply with a template attatched in a different layout telling me to use that in future as the accounts department are very particular.

AIBU to think she should have just sent me the invoice template in the first place if they are so particular, like she said she would

Widdlin, I'm seriously considering doing exactly that.

This is causing me alot of headache already.

I know they will have no intention of hiring me as an employee and honouring the associated rights, I'm too disposable.

Before a PP told me how I could save and edit the document they sent me, I replied thanking her for the invoice and saying I'll recreate the same template in future as I can't edit that one due to read only format.

Upon closer inspection she put "signed by...." at the bottom of the invoice so fuck knows if she's expecting me to write my name there aswell.

I don't really want to engage any further with them as I get the distinct impression they think I'm a nuisance.

Given that the invoice (they created - in the end!) has all of my details, I don't have to sign it aswell do I? It has been completed as though it was done by me.

My name, bank details etc.

I've just sent her back another copy, signed.

Sod it if they think I'm a nuisance, I want my money the pittance that it is

Very bizarre set up OP, it's more hassle for accounts to do this than add an entry line to payroll. I'm not sure what they are achieving by doing this???

In regards to your document. Read only is default, when you do your next inv just file save as with today's date. I will accept an email attached to an expenses form as an official signature for the form. However I suspect your trying to soar like an Eagle and flying with pigeons 🙄

You don’t have to sign an invoice.

There’s a lot of new legislation coming in that really cracks down on this - you have an employer, not a client and they should be treating you as such.

As a side note to your original question - my agency includes invoice design in our branding packages. I know our clients would be very annoyed if someone was demanding it be in word (which is odd to begin with - they shouldn’t be able to edit it!) after they’d paid for something that reflects their company.

I hope you get this all sorted out!

In my experience, companies that want to dictate to you as if you're an employee yet insist you're self employed are a shower of shit! I'd leave the job and either do self employed cleaning work where you are genuinely self employed and can choose your clients and time of work, or look for a job with a company that employs people properly.

Actually I have just had a thought whilst making tea. They want you self employed so you have no employment rights such as sick pay, pension contributions, holiday entitlement hence the wording "sending someone in your place to cover" so they are essentially employing you as a contractor! Fuck that.... Especially for a largish company. No morals at all...... Hardly like its a CEO wage!!

I think they're doing the 'self employed' thing to get out of paying holiday pay, SSP and other rights that come with employment. I can think of no other reason why they would want to do it this way.

I'm grateful to know about the 'save as' workaround making it possible for me to edit the document, that's very useful to know.

I can imagine I'm getting moaned about "that bloody cleaner pestering me can't even submit an invoice properly.. " or words to that effect.

Part of my job is paying invoices. Imagine if I went back to all the companies we use and insist their organisation uses my invoice template?!

They'd stop taking contracts from us.

@Florencex

If you are self employed, then you would usually be in control of what your invoice looks like. Some larger companies may have a particular purchasing system that they might want service providers to submit in a particular format. But if this is just a paper invoice, then I would not expect to be told what the format should be if I were genuinely self employed.

So it does make me wonder if this is real self employment, or if in fact they are just trying to avoid providing you with the benefits you are entitled to as an employee.

Can you pick your own hours? Turn work down? Send somebody else along? If the answer to any of those is no, then I doubt this is self employment by the legal definition.

This.

@Floating662

I think they're doing the 'self employed' thing to get out of paying holiday pay, SSP and other rights that come with employment. I can think of no other reason why they would want to do it this way.

I'm grateful to know about the 'save as' workaround making it possible for me to edit the document, that's very useful to know.

I can imagine I'm getting moaned about "that bloody cleaner pestering me can't even submit an invoice properly.. " or words to that effect.

You've hit the nail on the head re them not wanting to give you employees rights (they also won't want to have to pay employers NI and pension) which is exactly why HMRC are really cracking down on this.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

Part of my job is paying invoices. Imagine if I went back to all the companies we use and insist their organisation uses my invoice template?!

They'd stop taking contracts from us.

Brilliant user name @BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz! I love it!

I totally agree; DH and I run a company and we have to invoice lots of clients. If a client started demanding we use 'their' invoice to invoice them and being awkward and eye rolling it would be a definite red flag to us and would make us think twice about doing any work for them in the future.

I will attatch my 'agreement' here and I welcome any feedback on that.

They appear to have covered themselves in one regard as they have written "for the flexible hours" when actually, I've been told (and have proof in email) what my days and hours are.

It doesn't appear the images have attatched, I'll try again here.

I agree this is employment disguised as self-employment to avoid their duties.
I'd look for a new job if I were you.
In the meantime do a save-as for the Word doc and look up how to see if you can apply protection to make certain fields uneditable.
I hope you find a more reasonable organisation to work for.

I'll give some thought into whether I should start advertising cleaning services locally, I'm already registered with HMRC so it's not a bad idea.

The difficulty i face in that is that I'm a carer for my child. Weekend afternoons were brilliantly convenient so I jumped at the chance after looking for weekend work for months.

if they don't pay or sack you report the blighters - & when you report them make sure you mention that you didn't get holiday pay - Takes screw driver & screws it into them
By the way if your self employed can't you charge travel time & expenses?

Also. Have a look at one of the (mostly free) accounting apps. Zoho is a good one if you’ve under 25 clients it’s free.

You can send quotes, invoices etc and even do basic tax return stuff.

I'm not sure if I can charge travel time and expenses actually. It never occurred to me to look into it. The place I work is around 2 miles from my home so not far and I usually ride my bicycle

I'll look at some accounting apps thank you

The invoice generator I used was from a very highly rated app, used by thousands if not millions of people on a daily basis. I cannot understand what their problem was with it. It looked good, better than theirs even.

This place is the only client I have as it's the only cleaning job I've applied for. I work exclusively for them at the moment, nobody else.

Looks like the company is forcing self employment even though it's technically employment. They're probably doing this to avoid holiday/sick pay. Did you tell them you wouldn't be working for anyone else?

Whilst being self employed you would normally be in control of your own invoice format, if it's a big company they might use an automated system. I have a couple of clients who've sent me templates for their invoices (not cleaning companies) as they're processed electronically.

They are aware I wouldn't be working for anybody else yes. During the interview I explained that I'm a full time carer throughout the week and how this was ideal for me being only weekends. I also agreed to register with HMRC for the sole purpose of taking this job.

It's horrible how they treat low paid workers. I'm costing them less than £250 per month and providing an important service during a frightening time when cleaners are needed more than ever, and they can't even be bothered to give me an employment contract

Oh and they told me what my pay is. £9 per hour.

Somebody who is truly self employed doesn't get told what they will be paid do they. They tell the people they are doing the work for how much they charge.

@minniemoll

You can save a normal version of a read only file by clicking 'save as' and calling it something different. What I'd do is save the read only version, then every month, fill it in, and save as the date you send it. That means you can't accidentally type over your template.

Save as first before you change it or autosave will fuck you over.

@combatbarbie

They are achieving a lot in doing this and do not care about hassle for the accounts team.

Companies that force workers to be “self employed” when they are really not, do so to dodge Employer NI payments, pension auto enrolment responsibilities, sick pay, parental pay, annual leave, redundancy pay etc.

They have chucked the “send somebody else” line in because they think it means they can argue you are self employed. They have obviously taken some advice but it’s wrong, there is much more to it than that. Unfortunately a lot if companies do this and if you report the you will no doubt lose your job a they will find someone else instead.
It’s shit and unethical but they still do it

Consider too that if you are truly self employed you will need your own public liability insurance and won't fall under their remit (insured as employee) if there was to be an accident on site, they could potentially try to pass blame to you (wet floor etc, as you are a separate entity to the business) If they operate like this, personally I'd steer clear, they are clearly trying to dodge their responsibilities and although unlikely it could turn into a disaster.
In addition, you'll have to do your own self assessment books at the end of the year or employ an accountant, it strikes me as just not worth it. Maybe have a look at your local council and see if they have any cleaning vacancies, they normally have a few available and reliable employment terms.