Jobs with few hours that want massive flexibility

[Realii]

I keep looking at jobs, part-time and with pretty low hours that want massive flexibility. For example one wants 15hrs but presence at meetings that can be any day of the week as part of that. Others have totally unfixed shifts.
I used to easily get 2/3 jobs sometimes, and fit a few around each other. This seems impossible in the modern job markets. So many seem to not offer hours, yet feel they are buying you.
Is it just me?

Slightly different but my H recently got a job months after losing his last one. They advertised day shift, offered him the job, contract said day shift hours, then they told him it was shifts temporarily 'due to covid'. Obviously he wasn't going to knock them back but it has a huge impact on childcare because I work shifts too and we have no family support. He wouldn't have applied if he'd known it was shift work. No flexibility for me currently due to covid. We're trying to cobble together a childcare plan to see us through the 'temporary' period after which decisions will have to be made if they still insist on shift work

I totally agree with you OP. I've been wondering this myself as I've seen several jobs advertised where the applicants need to be fully flexible. I've three young children and my husband works full time and I can't take one of these part time jobs.

If youre under the threat of benefit sanctions youll take pretty much anything because if you dont you get your UC stopped

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. What happens if you accept a job and say clearly at outset (for example) that you cannot do Tuesdays & fridays because you have your children then? Eg if the job then gives you no shifts because you have turned down hours you always said you could not do, what happens in terms of benefits?

Can we name and shame these shit employers?

@nevermorelenore

I remember going into Holland and Barratt years ago to ask about a Saturday job and the manager was horrified that I was a student. She rudely told me "look, you need to be available every day for last minute shifts. If someone calls in sick I need you to be here like that" and snapped her fingers in my face.

Well, fuck her. I haven't set foot in their stinky shops since and buy my vitamins from a supermarket for half the price.

I used to work there for 10 hours a week (Saturday and Sunday) and never had that! I do, however, refuse to shop there now for other reasons unrelated to having previously worked there.

Businesses should be wheeled out and shot for it for disregarding equality laws. It discriminates against women, who tend to be the ones who have caring responsibilities for children or older relatives.

I remember applying for jobs like this where they say, e.g. 15 hours but not when years ago when DDs were small. I rang up one place and asked what the hours were likely to be in terms of times and days and they were unable to say, so I didn't bother!

NHS "bank" does really good zero hours, BTW.
When I was at uni, loads of us did cleaning on a "bank"/zero hours contract, no stress and could pick and choose hours as suited. They do clerical shifts, too.

It's all about sex discrimination with many employers, because it is mainly women with small children or female carers who are looking for part time. Fucking employers act like they are doing us a massive favour.

Ime there is usually a very high up female HR lead, who works full time and looks down on the rest of us who have to work part time.

I feel very strongly about this which has led me to become self employed.

I don't think it's deliberate discrimination in most cases. They simply don't care about their employees. If they can get someone to do random hours, pay them almost nothing and treat them badly then they'll do so. They don't care if they're treating a woman, man, student or gay gypsey assylum seeker badly. As long as they can get away with it cheaply and at their own convenience they'll do it.

@nevermorelenore

I remember going into Holland and Barratt years ago to ask about a Saturday job and the manager was horrified that I was a student. She rudely told me "look, you need to be available every day for last minute shifts. If someone calls in sick I need you to be here like that" and snapped her fingers in my face.

Well, fuck her. I haven't set foot in their stinky shops since and buy my vitamins from a supermarket for half the price.

😂😂😂

@NotOfThisWorld

I don't think it's deliberate discrimination in most cases. They simply don't care about their employees. If they can get someone to do random hours, pay them almost nothing and treat them badly then they'll do so. They don't care if they're treating a woman, man, student or gay gypsey assylum seeker badly. As long as they can get away with it cheaply and at their own convenience they'll do it.

This may be true, but it is still illegal. The Equality Act makes both deliberate and non-deliberate discrimination illegal, incudling indirect discrimination where a policy unintentionally has a negative impact on a specific group of people e.g. women. Until this is properly enforced, practice will not reflect the law.

@PolkadotGiraffe

I absolutely agree. Sorry didn't mean to imply it was OK. This is why we still need laws to protect workers. Even when discrimination is inadvertant it's still a massive problem.

I work in Health and Social care and so many employers in this field make out its a good thing they pay minimum wage, as if they had a choice and decided to do the decent thing and pay it.

Or it will boast a 'competitive' wage and be £8.72 an hour!

@nevermorelenore

I remember going into Holland and Barratt years ago to ask about a Saturday job and the manager was horrified that I was a student. She rudely told me "look, you need to be available every day for last minute shifts. If someone calls in sick I need you to be here like that" and snapped her fingers in my face.

Well, fuck her. I haven't set foot in their stinky shops since and buy my vitamins from a supermarket for half the price.

I dis this to, at Holland and Barratt in Saffron Walden. Asked about a 7 hour a week Saturday job and they said the same thing, was quite rude about it, saying that the applicant needed to be able to cover shifts when needed so it couldn't be a student (and she said it as if she had just smelled something bad!)

@Girlfrom15YearsAgo

As a recruiter, I really try to avoid this where possible. I'm working some senior partners at the moment on a massive project and we really need an administrator to help out with various bits. We've worked out that there really isn't any more than 15 hours of work available per week and decided that we'd be happy for the person to work this in any pattern that suits them. Of course, then the senior partners started talking about their own diaries and commitments, noting that the person would obviously have to be flexible in order to attend meetings when it suited them and that this would change week to week. I'm banging my head against a brick wall trying to explain to them that we'll need to agree set meeting times which coincide with the administrator's working pattern and trying to make them see that they might have another job or other personal commitments which they can't just abandon.

On the other hand though, I'm about to advertise a role in my own immediate department. Again, there is definitely not a full-time workload here - the job will be around 20 hours per week but due to the nature of our work, this person must be present every day Mon-Fri. So long as they are in for at least three hours every day, the hours can be configured in any way they want. This is absolutely due to the nature and demands of this particular job but I'm being told by our HR department that this is too rigid and will put people off applying. Surely though, it's worse to advertise a job as fully flexible, put someone through an interview and then turn them down (possibly having to re-advertise) because they can't do Wednesdays and Fridays?

I can see some people might not want to come in for a few hours a day, but for me that would be ideal as long as the commute wasn't so expensive it ate into the daily three hours significantly. But I could work three hours easily while also getting kids to and from school and doing daily errands.

No job will work for everyone but that seems perfect for a mum looking to get back to work when her kids go to school.

[quote NotOfThisWorld]@PolkadotGiraffe

I absolutely agree. Sorry didn't mean to imply it was OK. This is why we still need laws to protect workers. Even when discrimination is inadvertant it's still a massive problem.[/quote]
I don't think the discrimination is the real issue though. Even if it affected men and women equally, it's deeply unjust. We shouldn't understand injustice towards workers only in terms of disparities between identity groups.

@Goosefoot

I don't think the discrimination is the real issue though. Even if it affected men and women equally, it's deeply unjust.

Again, I absolutely agree. Treating workers in general badly is unacceptable. Treating workers badly in a way which is particular unfair to a specific group is also deeply unfair. Either on their own is not acceptable and should be prevented by law. It seems in this case both are happening.

But that's all communist talk innit?

Said by someone named @RedSquirrelGreySquirrel
Hilarious

I used to work at an independent cafe when I was 16. I’d been working there waitressing for a few weeks when the next girl due in called in sick (with only an hour to spare) the manager called another girl whose day off it was and said she needed to be here to cover in an hour! The girl said she would try her best but she didn’t drive and the walk was 40 mins so she might be just over an hour (it was nice of her to agree to come in on her day off anyway) the manager huffed and hung up and ranted to me about how work ethic with youngsters didn’t exist and this girl was the laziest person etc etc
I quit anyway after a few more weeks for other reasons

A few times they called me asking if I could be there in 15 mins as they were really busy. I used to think they should pay us more if they expect us to be on call like that. I was on £3.72 an hour there

Things have definitely changed. I used to have a weekend job in retail as well as a week job(public service)- there was never any question of being available in the week for it. I did sometimes do extra in Christmas holidays or summer, covering people's holidays, but that's only when I was taking leave from my FT job.
There were lots of us that were either week only or weekend only.

I'm looking for a new job and need part time really for the childcare I have but it's either a flat no from the recruiters that approach me (I have no idea if the actual employer might be amenable) or the part time roles are at start ups with no money to pay me

I'm finding the same.
Went for an interview for a job that's 2 x 10hr shifts on set days but I also had to be available to cover any staff sickness or holiday on other days.

Another one was 18hrs over 2 days, asked if these were set days and told no, it will be a rota which changes month to month.

So both jobs would require full time commitment/childcare for part time hours, no feasible for me.

@nevermorelenore

I remember going into Holland and Barratt years ago to ask about a Saturday job and the manager was horrified that I was a student. She rudely told me "look, you need to be available every day for last minute shifts. If someone calls in sick I need you to be here like that" and snapped her fingers in my face.

Well, fuck her. I haven't set foot in their stinky shops since and buy my vitamins from a supermarket for half the price.

I'm always amazed for this reason at the insistence on some MN threads that teenagers must have a 'Saturday job' and that if they don't they're lazy and destined to fail. Maybe it's different in different areas but in my area no one wants a teenager who can only do weekends and the jobs that were done by sixth formers when I was one are now all done by people who are very clearly adults. The job market has changed, and very much not for the better.

Dh once applied for a job which was 48 hours per week - 4 x 12 hour shifts. He was, however, expected be available 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. The shifts for the following week were released only 2 days in advance. So you couldn't arrange to see family a few weeks in advance, for example, because you might have to cancel at the last minute if your shift interfered.

When he asked if he could have set shifts so that at least he could plan his children's birthday parties ahead, they said he should look for another job if he wanted "that kind of flexibility"!!!