Language

[blueberrypie0112]

I watched a show about an American who came to live in France for a year for a job and my sister who did live in paris for a year felt turned off because she felt it was disrespectful that they make it ok to live in a country (temporary) without learning the language first. I told her the show was not about the girl refusing to learn the language, she picked up bits and pieces and taking classes in France and I asked her if that’s what people told her when she was in France. Anyway, am I being Aibu to think it is not a big deal if someone don’t learn the language before they go to these places?

naive about what?

That people should learn it no matter the situation? Or something else? I asked my sister if they let people live there permanently without knowing the language first, and I think she said no,

You’re naive if you think they kick people out of the country if they can’t speak the language. Even if that was law, and I very much doubt it is, it couldn’t be enforced.

I think it really depends on what's the purpose of the trip. It's ok to know just few words and walk around with a dictionary (now in a phone). There are so many different situations in which people move abroad, that it would be wrong to use blanket rule of "learn before the move". Obviously it's better, but something it's not really viable option.

However, I look down at people who have lived somewhere for 1+ year and didn't develop any language skills. It's lazy and rude.

Also, you can live permanently in countries without language. Language tests are for nationality in most.

Just an fyi, in UK it's B1 English level for naturalisation.

If you are going there for a set time and to try to learn by immersion- fine. Make an effort, know some basic phrases and try your level best.
If you plan to move permanently and expect everybody else to speak your language because you can't be arsed- not fine.

So very situation dependent.

@RomeoLikedCapuletGirls

Are you talking about Emily in Paris? If so, that was a massive pile of shite that could actually have been good.

She wasn’t BU for not speaking French when she arrived as it was a last minute trip but she was massively U for barely speaking more than a few words after months of being there.

And for the terrible clothes she wore.

Nooo. I wanted to watch this!

@CherryPavlova

I think it’s incredibly rude and a touch colonialist to not bother learning a few basic words before you even go on holiday to another country.

Hello, goodbye, please, thank you, a few numbers, a few drinks/foodstuffs, lavatory, left and right. How hard can that be? An attempt to use people’s language usually results in better service and greater assistance.

Agree. I was in Germany and struggling with asking for directions, the very nice German lady in the shop switched to flawless English, thanked me for trying, and told in English and even drew a map for us. I think people appreciate the effort.

Also, is it not simply more difficult if you don't?

I know an English guy who's living in Germany for years and still can barely speak a word of German. He can only go to the bank/state office etc on the day when there is a translation service available. Same applies if he needs medical care. You're relying on someone else's proficiency in your language to diagnose whatever problem you have. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that!

I'd rather avoid the trouble and just make an effort, personally.

Also, I really don't think it has much to do with colonialism... There are people from all over, from and in all the countries, who never learn because they just stay within their community.

If I travel anywhere I make sure we can all say at least please and thank you in the local language.
When we bought a property abroad somewhere I used to speak the local language I very quickly took refresher classes and arranged classes for DH and the DC.
I would never move anywhere without making at least a very good attempt to learn the language and if I moved with very little notice I would do my best to learn it ASAP. I think everyone should do the same

A Swedish friend’s son came to work in London and despite truly excellent English, still sometimes had trouble understanding non RP accents.

His mother, who’d lived in the U.K. for ages, advised him to watch Coronation Street and EastEnders!

Ditto to pps who say it’s much easier to learn when in the country. You are bombarded with it daily - overhearing other people, advertisements, TV, signs in the street, newspaper headlines, etc.

When we lived in Cyprus aeons ago, besides my trusty Teach Yourself book, I picked up quite a bit of Greek from e.g. Tv ads, signs in streets, not to mention the old granny who lived downstairs shouting at her grandson!

@SchrodingersImmigrant

Also, I really don't think it has much to do with colonialism... There are people from all over, from and in all the countries, who never learn because they just stay within their community.

Of my experience anywhere but in U.K. I do think there is a perception that the rest of the world should speak English.

Never seen that show but in the modern world you definitely don't always have the option to just learn a language before moving to a country. If your job requires you to move there with a few months notice there's simply no way you're going to become fluent in that time. Obviously you should make an effort though. If I was going to move to a country just for a lifestyle change then yes I'd make sure I had a semi decent grasp on the language first.

I have lived in 5 different countires.
each time I learnt the language while there.
But each time I also made language learning a priority and started learning later, after intense language courses.

But also, on 4 of those countries, I could not have 'got by' in English, so it was learn it if you wnat to live here. Shopping, taxis, neighbours, needed language for everything.

It is massively easier to learn once in the country.
I have zero patience though with people who don't/won't learn. I adore the programe Escape to the Chateau, but I feel deep;y irritated that they (especially Angela) have not learnt French. Just rude.

Dick Strawbridge speaks French, I think? And their kids are at school by now, surely, so I guess she gets by. Maybe she's shy to speak on TV in case people jump on her for getting something wrong? As if that could happen

I dont see the issue. I dont care if people cant speak english in england. I dont assume that its because they dont give a shit but that they didnt have a choice to before they moved here.
I quite like Emily in paris, she had like a weeks notice she was going and was taking a class, not everyone picks up languages easily.
Lifes easier if you speak the local language so you've got to give people credit that maybe theres another reason.

I’m watching Emily in Paris, and I don’t know if it’s deliberate that she’s so clueless. My husband is French so I’ve spent a lot of time hanging with French people, and I am totally siding with her French colleagues who find her obnoxious

@Absy

I’m watching Emily in Paris, and I don’t know if it’s deliberate that she’s so clueless. My husband is French so I’ve spent a lot of time hanging with French people, and I am totally siding with her French colleagues who find her obnoxious

I think they did it on purpose, I am pretty sure the writers have something planned

I dont assume that its because they dont give a shit but that they didnt have a choice to before they moved here.

See, it depends on how long they've been somewhere. If they just came, your second opinion is absolutely fine, but then after 5 years... It is not giving a fuck. It's inconsiderate because it adds to costs of everything and takes extra time to people. For example in gp surgery/hospital, job centre, etc. Something what would normally take 15 mins will take easily an hour with the wait for an interpreter, translation and so on.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

I dont assume that its because they dont give a shit but that they didnt have a choice to before they moved here.

See, it depends on how long they've been somewhere. If they just came, your second opinion is absolutely fine, but then after 5 years... It is not giving a fuck. It's inconsiderate because it adds to costs of everything and takes extra time to people. For example in gp surgery/hospital, job centre, etc. Something what would normally take 15 mins will take easily an hour with the wait for an interpreter, translation and so on.

Or maybe people like myself (I am deaf since birth , had cochlear at the age 25) have a disability and struggle. It took me a long time to get a hang of my first language

And I was told that a lot of people who don’t learn second language at a younger age have a harder time learning it as adults. Not impossible, just harder. My uncle had a difficult time in Sweden (he married someone from there and moved there with her, he wanted her to come to America but she wouldn’t or couldn’t) and in his 40’s with barely no second language background, he couldn’t get anywhere. It’s not he didn’t want to though. He eventually went home

Obviously disability plays a role and it's understandable that it will considerably affect it. I didn't realise that I was supposed to put "unless of course you can't". Thought that would be implied.

And I was told that a lot of people who don’t learn second language at a younger age have a harder time learning it as adults. Not impossible, just harder.
Yes. It makes it harder, doesn't make it impossible, as you said. So point still stands. If someone (unless they have disability affecting this) doesn't learn anything of that language, they just didn't give a damn.

I told her the show was not about the girl refusing to learn the language
The blurb for the first episode says "Emily brings her can-do American attitude and fresh ideas to her new office in Paris, but her inability to speak French turns out to be a major faux-pas"

I do think there is a perception that the rest of the world should speak English

Much of the rest of the world either already speaks English or is taught English as a second language at school so not an entirely unexpected assumption really.

Many countries have English as one of their official languages. It is used globally in business. It is the international language of pilots and air traffic controllers. Many countries trade with the USA so need to speak English for that reason.

Several of my British friends are fluent in Japanese, having lived and worked there. No doubt a Japanese person living and working in Portugal might learn Portuguese.

On the other hand, if a Japanese person and the Portuguese person both have English as a second language, they might prefer to converse in English.

There isn't always time to learn the language before moving. I wouldn't expect people to know multiple languages depending on where they might move.
DH and I were offered jobs in Germany during February half term and then moved at Easter. There certainly wasn't time to get the language skills sorted, although we were listening to some German language CD in the car on the drive over.
DH doesn't need German in his daily life. Not really. His work environment is completely in English. Even the train announcements on his commute are in English. He's slowly making progress with having the confidence to speak to people in shops etc. I'm fully bilingual anyway but my work environment is also completely in English. I don't have to speak any German during the day. It does mean that I do a lot of the paperwork and translating for our family, though, and sometimes even I don't remember the words.
DS is 3 and bilingual but has only just started to use German after switching to a different nursery. He seems to find it quite good fun to know words in both languages by now.

I'd agree that anyone going to another country should make an effort to learn something of the language. Partly a courtesy thing, partly because it makes your life that much easier if you can at least read signs, identify stuff in the supermarket etc.

That said, courtesy goes both ways. I've had enough experiences of eye-rolling, tutting 'who is this idiot foreigner who speaks my language like a pre-schooler?' to realise that even a decent grasp of the local lingo, when delivered in a noticeably foreign accent, can always annoy someone. If you're not prepared to slow down and work with a non-native speaker, don't complain that the non-native speaker struggles to keep up.

@andyindurham I get annoyed by the automatic the slowing down and speaking louder 🙄 ugh. It would be nice if people first heard you speak before that. I agree It's absolutely polite to help someone who is learning. It's rude to assume everyone is just now learning.