Kids snacks at school - white carbs twice before lunch

[prettyflowersinthesky]

DD is in y4.

I seriously don't want to be "that" parent so am wondering on the consensus on this.

DD's school has started giving the whole school's kids stodgy white carbs with jam twice before lunchtime (bagels).

Once when they arrive in the morning, and then again at break time.

DD is coming home with most of her lunch uneaten.

I fully appreciate about food poverty and that giving the kids food in this blanket way is a way of addressing that without singling out or embarrassing hungry children or families.

But I question

1. Whether or not the white carbs plus jam is appropriate nutrition
2. Whether or not most kids really need this
3. Whether or not two snacks between breakfast and lunch is excessive

There is no requirement for the kids to take and eat the snacks but to say to my child not to take them when the other kids are seems unfair.

I'm a bit torn, and certainly don't want to deny hungry kids access to food. But also wonder if the school needs to give this twice and also maybe the nutritional content of the snacks could be improved (e.g. fruit, whole grain snacks or something instead). I do appreciate that kids need more carbs than adults.

What does everyone think? Is this appropriate? I feel for the vast majority of kids without food poverty issues this is not necessary, so by serving all the kids a snack it is enforcing bad snacking habits, poor food choices as well as encouraging childhood obesity.

In many very healthy countries no snacking is allowed although I appreciate for very young children it may be necessary.

I am wondering whether or not to speak to the school about my concerns about them finding a better way to address the issues for the hungry kids.

But I do not want to speak up if I am seriously misinformed about all of this, hence interested in your responses. Thanks.

Yanbu = this is not appropriate / YABU - give the kids the snacks

@MintyMabel

So do you only offer it to those children in need?

Our school does a separate breakfast club, called the sunshine club. The kids most in need of breakfast, and some nurture time are invited to it. They do things like working out how much food they will need, work up shopping lists, they serve each other, sit together and chat. It happens away from the main breakfast club, and I guarantee the other kids have no idea what it is all about. I only knew it was happening because the kids wait in reception before it starts and I dropped our girl off in reception and saw them there. All the other kids are either in the dining hall for breakfast club, or meeting in the playground. Even with DD being in reception, she has no idea that’s what they are waiting for.

There is always a way to make sure those who need it are given help, without making it obvious.

Groups like this , while I admire them in nature , work only to a certain age group before attracting the wrong type of attention from the other kids.

@FrangipaniBlue

The privilege and naivety on this thread are pretty breathtaking tbh

Yes, some posters would benefit from shadowing a few of my frontline colleagues for a couple of weeks. Their budget planning and meal planning skills would be tested to the max.

@CakeGirl2020

It’s astonishing that people are unaware of how bad food poverty really can be for some families. I’ve really had my eyes opened, through teaching, as to how desperately some families live in this country

Tesco 1 litre cream fields UHT milk = 55p
Tesco 500g cornflakes = 60p

Tesco 800g wholemeal bread= 59p
Tesco Stockwell strawberry Jam = 28p

That is how cheap breakfast for a fair few days is. Parents on low income would qualify for child benefit for the child. We also have food banks for those in real need.

Yes I really struggle to believe people genuinely can’t afford the above. I get some truly shit parents exist and choose not to feed the child, for abuse reasons, they don’t know how to care for a child for whatever reason, stuff like that but I don’t believe a loving parent would allow a child to go to school hungry when for so little you can feed your child.

Do you not understand the choices that those in society on the lowest incomes make every day? Choices between heating the house or providing dinner to their children, choices between paying the rent or paying the electricity bill, choices that are even more limited in current times with uncertain employment and a benefits system that isn't fit for purpose? It is so easy for those of us with means to sit in judgement of those without, because we don't have to worry when instant noodles double in price to 80p and wonder how we will feel our family for that week, but a significant portion of our society do have these worries. Why do you think foodbanks and free school dinners are suddenly the topic of conversation? There was an article today about how many more children are applying for free school meals. It is astonishing to me that you are so narrow minded you cannot see the terrible circumstances people in our society live in. Let us both be astonished by other people today ....

The privilege and naivety on this thread are pretty breathtaking tbh

Really? I think it's incredibly naive to think jam bagels twice a day are going to solve anything, and not to understand the health problems you are stirring up for the future.

@prettyflowersinthesky

to all the people telling me to speak to my child to tell her not to take them, I do of course, do this. As per earlier posts, kids have poor impulse control, there are plenty of studies on this. So saying and the child doing it is another thing. imagine being with all your friends having a yummy sugary snack and having to say "no". As a child I would have found this difficult. I do my best to parent my child and we eat healthily at home. But impulse control especially around peers all doing one thing is another matter.

And at NO time during my posts have I ever suggested that hungry children get denied free food, I am all for it. Please don't suggest that I want to take away food from them. I do not. Please re-read my OP if you think that.

No, but it seems you want them singled out and easily identified as the poor children who aren't fed at home. How much of an uptake do you think there will be if that is the case OP?

@Marmitecrackers

Not only are jam bagels sugary crap but is this not also covering up a problem? Surely if you aren't giving your child a breakfast then social care need to be involved with the family to work on why that's happening and prevent it from being ongoing?

Ffs, how stretched do you think children's services are? There probably aren't enough social workers in the country to assess every family where kids don't get breakfast.

Even families where there are significant safeguarding issues are waiting ages for assessment where I live, and I'm in the "affluent" south-east. It was over 2 weeks before they got round to following up a where a mother and child both had bruising consistent with assault and seemed traumatised. In the neighbouring authority, they still haven't seen a family I referred 3 weeks ago because an adult child is assaulting and financially abusing the mother, leaving the younger children to go hungry.

Until social care is properly resourced there'll be precious little non-urgent work being done with families, and social care won't be properly resourced all the time this lot are in power.

The level of naivety on here is mind-boggling, and borders on wilful ignorance in some cases.

No, but it seems you want them singled out and easily identified as the poor children who aren't fed at home. How much of an uptake do you think there will be if that is the case OP?

Do you really, genuinely think that the OP wants that?

Just swap the second doughnut for an apple. Or don't have it all!

@CakeGirl2020

Not ideal really.

Can anyone really not afford a value loaf of bread & jam or a box of value cornflakes to feed a child breakfast before school? I mean come on, any decent parent would go without so the child could have breakfast.

Let’s just say all these parents really can’t afford to even provide a slice of value bread, feeding all the children rubbish each day is not the answer.

Also why are 2 bagels offered anyway? Fine, first one could be called breakfast buy why the second? Surely the poor starving no food at home ones are provided with a free school dinner so no need for the second bag,e. Surely fruit could replace the second bagel? It’s 1 a day then at least for the children.

Trying talking to your DD and say you know if you don’t want the bagel sweetheart, you can say no when it’s offered and remeber you do have x in your lunch box and that’s your favourite isn’t it.

this post really highlights how much ignorance there is around food poverty. There's a lot of well meaning comments here but if you've got to feed a large proportion of really hungry kids then this isn't a terrible choice. It's not ideal, nutritionally, but those things that are ideal are perhaps a bit more difficult to get those kids to eat. And you could argue that they should eat them, but really what's needed is for those kids not to be hungry in lessons so they can learn, for it to be something everyone will want to remove stigma and for it to be easy and low-fuss so it doesn't take up lots of learning time.

It might be possible to get a loaf of value bread, if you're fortunate enough to live near a supermarket which sells it. If not, then you're stuck with the corner shop which is more expensive so you might not be able to afford it. You might not be able to afford to have the electric on all the time. Not everyone will be in a situation as dire as this, but some will be. I've been there and it's terrible, though fortunately before I had a child. DD's best friend spend most of last year in a homeless shelter with her parents , where they didn't have proper access to cooking facilities. Breakfast was ok, really, as they had use of a toaster, but everything else was really hard.

You just have no idea the situations some people are in. Perhaps best not to judge the white carbs and maybe judge the government and society that allows children to go hungry.

Well said, @zaffa.

And then there are the families who can't afford to top up the gas/electric to cook proper meals more than once or twice a week. For them, a bag of chips from the chippy often works out cheaper.

A whole doughnut covered in sugar and filled with a huge blob of jam is a 'yummy sugary snack'. Half a bagel with a thin coating of jam to make it more palatable, not so much.

Ffs, how stretched do you think children's services are? There probably aren't enough social workers in the country to assess every family where kids don't get breakfast.

I sadly don't doubt how under resourced social care is. However, failing to feed your child is neglect. Half of the problem is we just pick up after everyone rather than getting people to take responsibility and fix the issues. Not going to feed your kids? Don't worry we will do that for you.

Not feeding your child is rarely the whole story, it's symptomatic of wider parenting issues.

Well said, @zaffa*.

And then there are the families who can't afford to top up the gas/electric to cook proper meals more than once or twice a week. For them, a bag of chips from the chippy often works out cheaper.*

Again that's neglect. They need support to get work to improve earning potential. Support to budget. Are they eating porridge,lentils, beans, cheaper cuts of meetabd wonky veg and drinking water rather than pop or are they buying Coco pops, bottles of squash, nuggets, pre made lasagne??

Do they need support for mental health to get better to go back into work or even to feel well enough to cook?

@Janevaljane

No, but it seems you want them singled out and easily identified as the poor children who aren't fed at home. How much of an uptake do you think there will be if that is the case OP?

Do you really, genuinely think that the OP wants that?

Well what's the alternative? Only the children who qualify as poor enough get the free bagels or all children have the option of them if they're hungry? What is the third alternative?

@Marmitecrackers

Well said, @zaffa*.

And then there are the families who can't afford to top up the gas/electric to cook proper meals more than once or twice a week. For them, a bag of chips from the chippy often works out cheaper.*

Again that's neglect. They need support to get work to improve earning potential. Support to budget. Are they eating porridge,lentils, beans, cheaper cuts of meetabd wonky veg and drinking water rather than pop or are they buying Coco pops, bottles of squash, nuggets, pre made lasagne??

Do they need support for mental health to get better to go back into work or even to feel well enough to cook?

But who provides the support? SS don't, family services are too busy doing the work social services should be doing really and who does that leave to identify and work with these families?

Of course giving hungry children a bagel isn't going to fix issues of poverty/neglect etc! But you can't just store a child in a box in the loft until the 'problem' is 'fixed'. A child needs food NOW! If a bagel can stop a child's stomach rumbling for a couple of hours then it is a good thing. The 'problem' will be known about in the wider context and but the 'fix' won't happen overnight.

And while the work is being done to tackle the possible deeper issues we just let the children starve?

What is the third alternative?

A balanced nutritious breakfast and snack offered for all?

Our school managed this before you say it’s in finically possible.

Just because they are relying on school to feed them doesn’t mean they should just settle and be grateful for any food. They should be given good healthy food, which is varied every few days at least.

Just because they aren’t hungry doesn’t mean they are healthy.

We have an advert locally which shows a football club feeding kids breakfast. With food that wouldn't be allowed near a modern footballer.

Yes it's patronising and a poor intervention.

Apologies if someone has already said this as the thread is 16 pages long.

I work at a school. We have breakfast club, which I believe is available free to pupil premium students. We provide cereals from the healthier end of the market, best if both bread for toast or sandwiches (jam or honey is available, but we're stingy with it), porridge, fruit and yoghurt.

For breaktime every child is offered a piece of fruit.

Can't remember the last time I convinced a child to eat fruit at breakfast and the 3/4 of the snack fruit is returned untouched.

The OPs school is probably doing a simple calculation. What can we afford vs what wont end up in the bin.

The only reason we provide the fruit at break is because a charity gives it to us. It allows us to hang on to our "healthy schools" status.

[quote prettyflowersinthesky]@MJMG2015 I said fruit "for example". How can you expect "the best" substitute to be substituted on a low budget? Anything even a little better, is better.[/quote]
I do t think you’ve shopped for that many children, I have and a bagel is cheaper than fruit. The bagels might be donated too. The school I worked at had bread donated so they could spend the money on resources they needed.
Lots of children don’t have breakfast and hardly anything in a packed lunch. Just because your child does doesn’t mean every child if the same. If you are worried maybe you could do a get the fruit for all the children? If not then maybe let the school carry on providing what they can.

@OverTheRainbow88

What is the third alternative?

A balanced nutritious breakfast and snack offered for all?

Our school managed this before you say it’s in finically possible.

Just because they are relying on school to feed them doesn’t mean they should just settle and be grateful for any food. They should be given good healthy food, which is varied every few days at least.

Just because they aren’t hungry doesn’t mean they are healthy.

A lot of assumptions are being made about the bagel - size, whether it's white or has hidden grains, how much of it is offered at each snack, and about the jam, like quantity and variety. We don't actually know the nutritional qualities of it, but what we do know is the school needs to feed children en masse, to ensure they are not distracted by hunger during classes. They need something all the children will willingly eat and don't run the risk of allergies (a surprising number of children have fruit allergies too). Ideally peanut butter with its extra protein would be great but it's far too high an allergen risk. If your school have managed to provide a healthier snack in current climates with the increased number of children living in food poverty and are able to offer it to a large number of children with minimal disruption to teaching, no danger of cross contamination from plates or cutlery and children are willingly eating it and no parents have felt the need to raise complaints then they have done something truly remarkable and frankly, if I were you I would be writing to your local MP to highlight this and request it is looked at being rolled out in schools in need more generally. Whilst that is happening, shall we continue to provide food to the children who are going without and give that time to bed in, or just hold off in case what is offered isn't nutritionally sufficient for them? Because something is better than nothing, always, when it comes to food poverty and it should absolutely be improved upon as soon as that is possible. But we shouldn't do nothing until we can only do the absolute best.

jam? Twice before lunch??

A tiny scraping of jam is about 20 calories and isn't going to tip anyone over the obesity edge. But some children will only eat jam sandwiches.

My DS goes to a small PRU where the majority are on FSM. They have donated foods (I know because he brings them home - they wouldn't be giving them to him if it was targeted nor would they be buying these foods specifically - some of them are from a well known sandwich chain).
Many of the DCs are very badly off and as they all, by definition, have behaviour problems I can imagine that getting them out of the door and into a taxi is all some families can manage in the morning.
They also often have restricted diets (SEN or just what they are used to) and families will make food as appealing as possible and also not risk healthy options that nobody will eat.
Cheapest food per calorie is biscuts and probably the most expensive is lettuce.
Most of the DCs will eat fruit but for many children (and I know this from my old middle class Brownie pack too) they will eat it cut up but it feels like too much of a burden to eat it whole (especially things like oranges).
In DS old school and in DD current school children can bring healthy snacks (fruit, popcorn etc.) for break time even though at DD school certainly some are given snacks by school even into KS2.
Can't you just send a healthy snack for her if you are worried?
But the scaremongering around "white carbs", they are not poison!

@zaffa

We’ve done it for years as 85% of our students are Pupil premium.

I’m not against the bagel in itself but I am against it being served 10 times a week.

OvertheRainbow, maybe that's the reason. If 85% of students are PP, then your school have way more resources compared to the school with less percentage, say 35%, as pp has pointed out in their comment as threshold for this charily.