to think that electric cars, electric radiators, hydrogen fuel cell cars are not zero emission?

[chomalungma]

First things first - I am totally for reducing a carbon footprint. I do things myself that are bad for the environment. Even starting this thread is using some energy that doesn't need to be used. I also think that electric cars, hydrogen power etc are a really good idea.

BUT

I was looking last night at getting electric radiators in the house. Inspired by the Government Green Grant. Even though this doesn't cover them.

There was a bit about a good reason to replace the traditional hot water radiators with electric radiators is that they have zero emissions of CO2 and so are 'infinitely' better for the environment.

Well - yes, in the house, there would be zero emissions. You aren't burning gas. And they are much more efficient than other radiators. But the electricity still has to be generated and we still have a lot of our electricity generated by gas turbines. We are getting better though

gridwatch.co.uk/

The same applies to electric vehicles - with the added issue that the energy costs in producing them - especially in mining the metals used for the batteries is high. And takes place in countries where they haven't got as much renewable energy sources.

Hydrogen - it's the future. Boris was in Teesside talking about the hydrogen economy. Hydrogen fuel cells. Great. Non polluting in cars - and that's a great thing for the local environment.

But you need to get hydrogen.

Most hydrogen is made by reacting methane with steam. This makes hydrogen and also leads to making CO2.

You can also make hydrogen by electrolysis of water. Which needs energy from electricity.

It's all so complicated. It's such a great idea to reduce pollution in cities. So important.

But at the moment, it seems that the CO2 is being made elsewhere - unless we move to more renewables to produce electricity (and even moving to more renewables has energy costs in that)

Really, we want to be finding ways to reduce our energy use, make things more energy efficient, reuse things that have cost energy to make.

And to be aware of all the energy costs and the ultimate life cycle in energy costs, CO2 production of everything we do.

I wonder how much energy this thread used?

You are right. The ultimate answer - but obviously the one no one wants to hear! - is that we all have to use and buy less of everything. But seeing as that's not going to happen, baby steps are I guess the only way forward!

I think renewable energy is largely a bullshit hoax

Why do you think that?

I think we need to find ways we can capture energy and store it rather than waste it.

I love the idea of pumped storage. Use energy when it's cheap (and ideally non polluting) to pump water up a mountain. Then capture the energy when it's needed by releasing the water to generate electricity at peak times.

Being able to capture and store energy from the sun, wind and tides is such an amazing idea.

Best way of storing and transporting hydrogen is to add a bit of oxygen and carbon ...

It's not just in use emissions, it's the manufacturing of the batteries that's a major flaw in the electric car argument. As far as electric radiators - look at the running costs, they have always been extremely expensive, my brother doesn't have gas and I've seen his bills

@DGRossetti

Best way of storing and transporting hydrogen is to add a bit of oxygen and carbon ...

C2H5OH?

Ok hoax is a strong word.

I think it's certainly largely bullshit. Look a the cost of installing "green" energy in your property, you'd never see a return.
Even solar panels now as cheap as they are to buy take years longer to get cost back on.

I see massive biomass boilers round where I live seldom used but with people claiming back 15 grand a year rhi payments.

Smoke and mirrors.

Plant more trees and insulate and draft proof your home properly. That'll be fine.

Just my worthless opinion.

Are you in Northern Ireland Gobby?

Plant more trees and insulate and draft proof your home properly. That'll be fine

With you on the trees bit.
Carbon capture is important.

Yes - Northern Ireland does seem to have had a few issues with regards to its approach to renewables.

C2H5OH?

Who's buying ?

It's great though that we are trying to make things more efficient - so they do the same job without wasting as much energy as they used to.

For example...vacuum cleaners etc. Limiting the power they use - although if they are less powerful but need more time to do the job, then that's not very good.

But anything that does the same job but needs less power to do it because it's not wasting power is a good move.

Or of course - we could move away from using that device in the first place (radical).

Virtually all electric car batteries now are warranted for 7/8 years, 100k miles - which means they will last even longer. Yes manufacturing is currently not zero emission but its getting there - eg vw have built a zero carbon electric vehicle plant in Germany.
If the argument 'nothing is zero emission' is used to justify doing nothing then the planet dies.

You're not wrong (that we should care where the electricity comes from), but let's not forget that where the emissions happen also matters.

E.g. electric car means cleaner air in cities, so less respiratpry illnesses, and that remains true regardless of how much CO2 is emitted at the source.

And carbon capture at the source (where electricity is generated) can lead to clever solutions: e.g. feed that CO2 into crops!

Whereas you can't create such efficient "CO2 recycling" loops when carbon is emitted in domestic premises or on the roads.

I like the idea of capturing CO2 for crops at source.

We also need to stop the ridiculous system whereby we expect mobile phones to only last for two years before we 'upgrade' to a new one with slightly better-on-paper willy-waving specifications. It's not the emissions with phones, obviously, but the precious rare metals that we devastate wildlife habitats to harvest and then toss aside after two years only then to do it all again.

Yes too much tech has built in obsolescence. You are eventually left with no choice but to upgrade because it will no longer support the latest software.

As someone else said on the first page, you need to stop the production, not increase the recycling only. It's all bullshit. It makes you have a warm fuzzy feeling inside, like you're doing good for the world and you're not. But you'll never stop the production.

Virtually all electric car batteries now are warranted for 7/8 years, 100k miles - which means they will last even longer.

That's a step in the right direction - although a warranty to repair any problems obviously isn't the same as a guarantee that there won't be any; or that they won't cite 'fair wear and tear' clauses when batteries still work, but only at 40% of their original capacity.

However, that still doesn't help less well-off people. The newest cars we've ever owned were bought when they were 8 years old. Replacement electric car batteries cost a fortune. Currently, you can buy a good, functional German or Japanese 8-10yo petrol or diesel car for maybe 5-10% of its new cost and, yes, there will be repairs and replacement parts needed as and when; but many of us simply could not afford to buy a 'new' (to us) 8yo car which would cost us effectively 30%+ of its new cost, when you factor in the price of a new battery.

It wouldn't even help those who can afford to buy new, as it basically means that a new car lasts 8 years, when a well-made, well-kept petrol or diesel car can last you 20 years without any enormous one-off bills without which it is useless; so you'll either have a huge bill to keep using it after 8 years or a huge bill to buy a new one, with only a non-working car to trade in against it, which will ultimately need to be bought by the people mentioned in the last paragraph, who can't afford to.

Also, some older people like to save from their final years' earnings or use an upfront pension lump sum to 'invest' in an expensive new reliable-make car at, say, 65 that they hope will see them through to the end of their driving days without any humungous one-off costs. Not much use unless you're confident that you will be 'past it' at only 73.

I love the idea of pumped storage. Use energy when it's cheap (and ideally non polluting) to pump water up a mountain

Why do you love that idea? Drowning huge areas of trees etc. huge concrete production (cement emits loads of co2) I'd've thought you'd be against that too as it only appears to be green if you don't look at the other costs?

Why do you love that idea? Drowning huge areas of trees etc. huge concrete production (cement emits loads of co2) I'd've thought you'd be against that too as it only appears to be green if you don't look at the other costs

Depends on where it's being done and how it's done. And it's a great way of storing energy - so when power stations are running at night, the energy from them that's not needed can be stored.

But as you said - it's complicated maths and science.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Nodded along with all of that. To hear advocates of electric cars saying how great it is that they're fine for 7 or 8 whole years is shocking! I think a lot of people have completely lost sight of how long a car can last and have bought into the 'exchange up every two years' culture. I'd be willing to bet that the ''environment'' is NOT near the top of the list of reasons for regularly swapping to a shiny new model for most people ... (What does happen to old the 2/3 year old discarded HP cars?)

I drive a 20 year old petrol BMW, I've had it since it was 7 and still in beautiful condition (one V careful owner with a garage). I have thrashed it a bit and it's lived outside for 13 years, but it's never needed anything really major doing to it and still she goes on. (slower up the hills these days)

I have no idea what i'll do when she dies, but what ever i get i bloody well hope it'll still be something going strong well past it's 7th year because i can't afford new!

Whilst they probably are when taken as a whole, I think the idea is being encouraged that 'petrol/diesel badly harms the environment; electric has no impact at all'.

I have NEVER seen it said that an EV ha son impact at all. However it is false that they create more issues than petrol and diesel cars, and actually how much they produce has diminished greatly. Similarly the issue with batteries is reducing too.

I have an EV car. I love it. It costs me around £2.50 a week to charge.

We always changed our cars regularly anyway, so its better that if I am going to do this I should make a greener choice.

Likewise, I know I am always going to want to fly abroad on holidays - so why not make changes elsewhere in my life as a way to reduce my overall use?

I make some small changes to my life in different ways to try to go a little way to counterbalance other aspects of my life. Doesn't everyone?

To hear advocates of electric cars saying how great it is that they're fine for 7 or 8 whole years is shocking!

Does it also shock you that similar is said of ALL cars, not just EV ones? If you only read consumer type reports online modern non EV cars are said to have an 8-10 year, or approx 150,000 mile lifespan.

Real life we know that this is often not the case. Like with other cars many EVs will be used for much much longer too. Yes, some may well need batteries changing or upgrading after that may years - just like many none EV become less efficient over time too and start to have issues. As said before the battery issue is constantly evolving and improving.

What does happen to old the 2/3 year old discarded HP cars

Well like any other car sold on, they go to the used car market. Being a lease or HP vehicle doesn't change that.

Although currently there is a lack of decent used cars for sale in the UK according to many of those working in that sector.

Re hydrogen, there are probably applications where fuel cells make sense, and others where they don't.
A case where they may be useful, because of the scale, is on non-electrified railway lines to replace diesel. I just caught an interesting interview with a couple of engineers working on a prototype on the radio just now.

Hopefully one day soon the boffins can make fusion a reality.

But cars are one part of the equation. There is nothing on the horizon with the energy density of petrol/diesel so it will be decades before passenger planes ditch kerosene.
In shipping people are begging to look at ammonia but it will be 40-50 years before all cargo ships are using this.

Then of course their is the energy needed to make your cornflakes, instant coffee etc

Then of course Europe is a small place. China will go green as like or loath their ideology they at least can make a 50 year plan and stick to it but India?? My children will be dead before their have the infrastructure for electric car!

Hydrogen is going to be the future. The plan is to extract it from water by electrolysis. Yes, it uses a lot of energy. The plan is to use offshore wind farms as a carbon neutral source for the power required. The Hydrogen will be compressed and stored subsea in the depleted North Sea gas caverns. It will be piped onshore, much like natural gas currently is into a national grid.
This is what the current Tory announcement on wind power is leading to. Burning fossil fuel natural gas to produce electricity to charge batteries is definitely not carbon neutral.
Electric vehicles are useful for short journeys only. Hydrogen will replace petrol and diesel for vehicles. The range and tank filling time is the same as currently. Nuclear will provide the stable baseline load, five new power stations will strengthen the capacity of Nuclear.

No, by themselves electric cars will not solve the problem. However they do have the benefit of reducing pollution in built up areas, and they have the potential to run on renewable generated electricity.
Moving to renewable energy is a complex problem and there is not one single solution. We have made a lot of progress though!

We will need to rethink how we use technology. For example, I think that car to grid technology could have an interesting impact on the feasibility of increasing the amount of renewables in our electricity supply: One of the problems is balancing supply and demand. Demand has always fluctuated, but many renewable sources (wind, solar etc) are intermittent, so increasingly we see supply fluctuate too. Which makes balancing the grid even harder than it was before!
Car to grid technology may allow us to charge our cars when supply exceeds demand, and take energy FROM our cars when demand exceeds supply... so our cars are not just a means of transport, but are also extra energy storage!